N15class Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Why are kits designed with this very poor design flaws like this? The half etch where the curve is going to be, then leave full thickness strips so rivet detail can be marked. When bent the two thicknesses bend differently. Leaving at best very visible stretch marks, at worse ripples. It is then compounded by the half etches in the wrong place. Please leave it full thickness, the metal is easy enough to bend it is not that thick in the first place. This was one of the few times I got all four bends in the right place first time, glad I did I hate to think of the mess if I hadn't. It is like the parallel half etched lines you get sometimes on footplates where there are reverse curves, it takes longer to get the top surface smooth than it does to do the bending. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The part in the first photo looks like a tank loco bunker rear/sides, not the pannier tank shown next, so a bit confusing. Simply, it looks like it was designed by someone who hadn't much experience and is possibly from the earlier days of etched kits. Over the years designers have become more experienced at creating kits which go together well. However some of the kits on the market are still early designs, occassionally under new ownership/rebranded and it isn't commercially viable to redesign/ retool them. The answer is to understand what you are buying and whenever possible buy a kit that has an established reputation for accuracy and ease of assembly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Personally I'd have made the whole lot half etched and left the rivets full thickness, supplied as an overlay over a structural former below, but that's because I hate punching rivets! It is also a costly way to do things as you effectively double up every panel using twice as much metal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted September 20, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2014 The answer is to understand what you are buying and whenever possible buy a kit that has an established reputation for accuracy and ease of assembly. But people tend to buy kits of a prototype that they're interested in and then try to figure out how to build it. While SOME prototypes have multiple etched kits available, many have only one supplier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hand drawn artwork -- how quaint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 .....The answer is to understand what you are buying .... Not easy if you are going mail-order and can't actually see the etches and castings beforehand.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 But people tend to buy kits of a prototype that they're interested in and then try to figure out how to build it. While SOME prototypes have multiple etched kits available, many have only one supplier. Sometimes it might be easier to scratchbuild it. But the OP asked why are kits designed with flaws like those shown? Bill has pointed out handrawn artwork, which combined with the condition of the brass makes it look like an old kit and an early example of the technique. Nobody sets out to make a bad kit, some just weren't any good at in the first place and in the early days a lot of what is now known about how to best design a kit was still was still in the future. W see the same with 3D printing at the moment, there are some bl**dy awful example of stuff out there, being hailed as the new beginning and an answer to all modelling ills. Even with CAD and today's knowledge, designing good etched kits needs commitment, precision and organisation. If you want to have a go, I'll happily teach you the basics. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 .... designing good etched kits needs commitment, precision and organisation. If you want to have a go, I'll happily teach you the basics. What do you charge for tuition, Jol? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Not easy if you are going mail-order and can't actually see the etches and castings beforehand.... Ivan, surely one of the (supposed) benefits of Forums like this is you can seek out other peoples' experience of the product. Kit brands get reputations, you don't have to see a Finney/Mitchell/High Level kit to know that it is "better" than an old Jidenco/Falcon Brass one, simply by asking about. Some supplier will be honest and tell you which of their kits are better/easier to build. John Redrup at London Road Models is very open about this, the LRM range having grown by acquiring some other ranges and at the same time their own designs have improved over the years. I accept that sometimes opinions aren't "accurate", a badly built model sometimes being the fault of the builder rather than the designer, but they don't always want to recognise it. Jol What do you charge for tuition, Jol? If that is a serious, rather than a rhetorical question Ivan, PM me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Shedloads. If we teach everyone to do good artwork we'd be doing ourselves out of work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Shedloads. If we teach everyone to do good artwork we'd be doing ourselves out of work. I doubt that very much, I'll be worm food long before someone comes up with a decent etched kit of the stuff I want to buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Such as? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Shedloads. If we teach everyone to do good artwork we'd be doing ourselves out of work. Trade secrets, eh, Bill? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Would you be willing to teach me immigration law so that I could take it up as a hobby? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Such as? Any and everything North London. There's one and a half loco kits and a brake van, that's it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Would you be willing to teach me immigration law so that I could take it up as a hobby? That's entirely up to you...... But you'd be the one getting sued, not me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 This has taken an interesting turn and shows the different approach from suppliers. Bill is clearly concerned about somebody undermining his business by making something he might have designed. On the other hand, another I know supplier is willing to help develop, manufacture and market kits that others have designed. Researching and designing a kit requires a lot of time and effort, while producing it requires another set of skills and knowledge. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Any and everything North London. There's one and a half loco kits and a brake van, that's it. LRM do the coaches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 LRM do the coaches I know, forgot to write that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 How much more stock did the NLR have? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted September 20, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2014 I started doing my own etches simply becasue I acquired, legally, a whole lot of prototype info that I couldn't afford to have turned into etches by someone else. I've now done a few bits for firends and it has been a very interesting learning experience. However I've just spent some time soldering up some etches that I first drew over 3 years ago and even though I know what I had in mind,have found myself cursing the kit designer. The process has given me a lot of resepct for the professional kit designers who have made a business out of it. Many good craftsmen have tried to do that but the business has failed due to their lack of business skills..The experience has beenh hard won and has not put me off but it'svery unlikely that I would actually go into business. However a friend has asked me to do some etches for a particualr set of pre grouping coaches. I have said that I will have a go and he will then try and sell them through the line society but with no guaruntees, more as scratch building aides. I wish the OP luck with his build. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Such as? Anything Cambrian. Currently I have available to me 3 locomotives - A 4-4-0 from Dragon Models (and I don't think a lot of the design of their etches) and an 0-6-0 from Peter K, which is just the etches, the fittings still have to be found. I've only seen photos of some of the frets and they look OK from a glance. There's also the ubiquitous Manning Wardle produced by a few different manufacturers, haven't any experience of any of them though. There are precisely 157 locomotives on the Cambrian stock list, whilst the above 3 locomotives are quite numerous within it there's still quite a shortfall! I think I'm correct in saying that you have at least one item of Cambrian rolling stock in your own range though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Anything Cambrian. Currently I have available to me 3 locomotives - A 4-4-0 from Dragon Models (and I don't think a lot of the design of their etches) and an 0-6-0 from Peter K, which is just the etches, the fittings still have to be found. I've only seen photos of some of the frets and they look OK from a glance. There's also the ubiquitous Manning Wardle produced by a few different manufacturers, haven't any experience of any of them though. There are precisely 157 locomotives on the Cambrian stock list, whilst the above 3 locomotives are quite numerous within it there's still quite a shortfall! I think I'm correct in saying that you have at least one item of Cambrian rolling stock in your own range though? I've built the RT Models Manning Wardle and I can recommend it. Goes together very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 How much more stock did the NLR have? They had a reasonable amount of freight stock, especially considering the length of the railway. There is a distinctive brakevan not yet available, but it's really locomotives that are lacking. The 0-6-0 is available in whitemetal, one of the 4-4-0Ts is available etches only, the other, far more distinctive, isn't available at all. I don't really think that anyone is going to produce these, but if I build the layout I want I'll need 5 or more of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 20, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2014 Why are kits designed with this very poor design flaws like this? a.jpg The half etch where the curve is going to be, then leave full thickness strips so rivet detail can be marked. When bent the two thicknesses bend differently. Leaving at best very visible stretch marks, at worse ripples. It is then compounded by the half etches in the wrong place. Please leave it full thickness, the metal is easy enough to bend it is not that thick in the first place. b.jpg d.jpg This was one of the few times I got all four bends in the right place first time, glad I did I hate to think of the mess if I hadn't. It is like the parallel half etched lines you get sometimes on footplates where there are reverse curves, it takes longer to get the top surface smooth than it does to do the bending. Peter, for a minute I thought you'd posted photos of my 1366 build. This is a new kit from an established kit producer and still had a multitude of errors and bits that don't fit. The top two folds of the tank came pre-formed but the bends were in the wrong place and to the wrong radius. This meant flattening the piece and rebending it. The two lower bends helpfully had half etch lines but they didn't line up with where the bends needed to be. I'm finding that other pieces are too long / short and that various holes are not in the right place. I'm sure that the seasoned pro would take this all in their stride and probably expects / relishes the challenge but it can be very offputting and demoralising for a newbie. The reason I chose the kit in the first place was down to the various warnings I'd had that other options were poor or only an aid to scratch building or had dimensional issues. The initial impression I had was good though as all the etched parts looked well laid out and crisply formed. I'd even had a good look at a completed kit on the stand. The devil though has been in the detail. I had mistakenly hoped for better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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