Patriots, whats the difference

[colin penfold]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone give me the main differences in allocation and usage between the original and rebuilt Patriots please.

 

I have seen evidence of unrebuilt locos from Bristol shed appearing at Southampton but not the rebuilt version. Id like to know why this might be as I wouldn't mind thd excuse to run a rebuilt one.

 

Thanks

[Poor Old Bruce]

The original Patriots were class 5XP like the Jubilees and the rebuilds were class 6 so would be expected to do class 6 jobs alongside Royal Scots. The early rebuilds were sent to Leeds Holbeck to give extra power to the Carlisle trains but would occasionally work south.

 

Bristol had some 5XPs but no class 6s.

 

At the end of the day Colin, it's your trainset and, if you want to run one, why not? Have a look at the thread about steam engines where they should't be.

[colin penfold]

The original Patriots were class 5XP like the Jubilees and the rebuilds were class 6 so would be expected to do class 6 jobs alongside Royal Scots. The early rebuilds were sent to Leeds Holbeck to give extra power to the Carlisle trains but would occasionally work south.

 

Bristol had some 5XPs but no class 6s.

 

At the end of the day Colin, it's your trainset and, if you want to run one, why not? Have a look at the thread about steam engines where they should't be.

 

 

Thanks very much. That's a great description of the difference and certainly explains why rebuilt locos didn't turn up on the Bamford Bridge oil tanks. I had a particular wish to pay tribute to Sir Herbert Walker and from an aesthetic point of view prefer the rebuilds. Given that I have a prototypical case for the original locos I have decided to combine that with rule 1. I have gone for an unrebuilt loco but am going to rename it Sir Herbert Walker on the premise that in my parallel universe it was one of the locos that didn't get rebuilt. I have promoted the theory elsewhere that it's only a matter of chance what condition each member of any class ends up in. Unless you want to slavishly copy an exact loco from a photo taken on the day you represent,  I reckon there's nothing wrong with picking the number or name you want as long as it's on a realistic model.

[DCB]

Did unrebuilt Patriots visit Southampton?   From Barrow Road?  Sounds unlikely,  Unrebuilt Patriots were reputed as difficult to fire and Leeds Holbeck specifically requested Barrow Road not to send Unrebuilt Patriots on the through Bristol Leeds trains as the Holbeck crews coudn't make them steam because of the shallow grate inherited from the boiler being designed for the LNWR Claughton class..  Barrow Road used Unrebuilt Patriots and Jubilees on the same turns at this time. and in the early days of the Jubilees the Patriots were the better performers The 2A boiler on the "Rebuilds" were just like sightly bigger Black 5 Boilers so no problems firing them, in fact the first locos with 2A boilers were the experimental 4-6-0 Fury and two Jubilees, Phoenix and Comet , I put "Rebuilds" in quotes because there could not have been much left after the rebuilding

[LMS2968]

Slight correction: 6170's - ex-Fury - boiler wasn't a 2A but a 2, the only one, in fact, and rather different. This boiler wouldn't fit any of the Rebuilt Jubilees, Patriots or Scots, and the 2A wouldn't fit 6170 either. The 2A was though a development of it.

[colin penfold]

Did unrebuilt Patriots visit Southampton?   From Barrow Road?  Sounds unlikely,  Unrebuilt Patriots were reputed as difficult to fire and Leeds Holbeck specifically requested Barrow Road not to send Unrebuilt Patriots on the through Bristol Leeds trains as the Holbeck crews coudn't make them steam because of the shallow grate inherited from the boiler being designed for the LNWR Claughton class..  Barrow Road used Unrebuilt Patriots and Jubilees on the same turns at this time. and in the early days of the Jubilees the Patriots were the better performers The 2A boiler on the "Rebuilds" were just like sightly bigger Black 5 Boilers so no problems firing them, in fact the first locos with 2A boilers were the experimental 4-6-0 Fury and two Jubilees, Phoenix and Comet , I put "Rebuilds" in quotes because there could not have been much left after the rebuilding

 

 

Source:  http://steamweb.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/loco-classes-galore.html

"18th May (1961) one of Bristol Barrow Road’s unrebuilt Patriot 4-6-0s, 45506 The Royal Pioneer Corps arrived at Eastleigh with a Bromford Bridge - Fawley oil train"

"On 20th August another Barrow Road Patriot turned up at Southampton with oil empties from the Midlands. This time it was 45519 Lady Godiva."

"In November (1962), the year drew to a close with further visits to Southampton by Bristol Patriots 45504 The Royal Signals and 45506 The Royal Pioneer Corps"

[TheSignalEngineer]

I thought that the Bristol Patriots were all withdrawn in March/April 1962.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I thought that the Bristol Patriots were all withdrawn in March/April 1962.

 

All three down as withdrawn w/e 17 March 1962.

[PenrithBeacon]

In the late-ish 1930s Scot 6148 The Manchester Regiment visited Southampton on a families special from Manchester as the regiment was being transferred from WI to India and the ship was calling at Southampton. AFAIK this was the only visit of an original Scot to the SR. There were stories of re-built Scots visiting the SR in the fifties but I haven't been able to track any down. I don't know of any mention in RO or RM but I haven't read SLSJ.

 

Regards

[pH]

There were stories of re-built Scots visiting the SR in the fifties but I haven't been able to track any down. I don't know of any mention in RO or RM but I haven't read SLSJ.Regards

I knew I had seen a picture of a rebuilt Scot at Southampton Docks in the early 1960s. I went searching - and look what I found! http://steamweb.blogspot.ca/2013/07/eastleigh-southern-steam-mecca.html . (Scroll down). That's not the picture I remember - it was actually taken in the docks - but that was the engine and the working.