1960s DMUs, well actually the Blue Pullman

[Silver Sidelines]

I have just discovered this rather splendid contemporary promotional video on YouTube (which I have also posted on the Blue Pullman thread).   If you are interested in the Blue Pullman or just 1960s BR it is well worth a viewing.  There are some amazing shots which had me wondering whether it was model or prototype.  The railway men all look very old.  There is a telling touch with the 'boffin's' cigarette left balanced on the ash tray by his notes.  Did smoking really age people so much?  Or maybe all the stewed tea.

 

Now a question.  I like the 'red' oil lamp at the rear of the train as it disappears into the maintenance depot?  My memory is rubbish but I would have said that the fixed electric lights on early DMUs were only white and that changing to red in reverse is a non prototype feature introduced by Bachmann.  All the DMUs have lamp irons.  Was that simply belt and braces with little faith in the 'new electric lights'?

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Ray, you must be one of the few who've never seen this film!

 

Surely it's one of the "greats" produced by British Transport Films, up there with the likes of the GPOs "Night Mail".

[stewartingram]

No, fixed lights on first generation DMUs would show red or white depending on which cab the driver was driving from, as can be seen here (just about).

 

class 108 haltwhistle 16:8:91.jpg

When introduced, ALL the 1st generation dmu's carried an oil tail lamp, as indeed did the diesel locos, though many were fitted with electric lights. Seems it was the rule book, stating that the signalman had to observe a tail lamp hung on the back vehicle only, thus describing the train as complete. Only a later change of rules, with signalboxes clsing in favour of more centralised locations, saw this rule changed. Probably some involvement with Union agreements too I suspect?

 

Stewart

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks John and Peter, yes the video is too good not to have been noted before,

No, fixed lights on first generation DMUs would show red or

John it is a good picture - perhaps a later Pressed Steel set, certainly the blue and grey era.

 

 

If the attached image is enlarged, this green Metro Cammel set seen leaving Great Ayton (North Yorkshire) has an oil lamp positioned on the left side lamp iron.  As I said my memory as a twelve year old trainspotter would have said that the green Metro Cammels at Darlington only had white lights.  Good job I am not in the witmess box.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[YK 50A]

Hi Ray,

 

I hadn't seen that film before, so thanks for posting.  I had a look at a few others too, but then I remembered your thread.

 

I wouldn't say that DMUs are my strong suit, other than Calder Valley 110s and Transpennine 123s and later 124s perhaps, but here goes.  What I do know is that broadly speaking, earlier DMUs would have been fitted with white lamps only.  Red was achieved by dropping a red filter into the lamp, the filters were carried in a rack in each cab.  They were rarely if ever used, as electric tail lamps were banned almost immediately, hence oil lamps being required.  Later DMU builds would have had switchable red/white lights and those that didn't would have been so modified, I think by the early 1970s.  Into refurbishment, it gets even more complicated with different driving vehicles variously losing headcode boxes or lamps.

 

Apologies if I am stating the obvious, but in later years, I believe the middle of the 3 lamps became the default tail lamp on Blue Pullmans.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Alun

 

***  EDIT - a typo ***

[Il Grifone]

Lack of faith in the 'new-fangled' electric lights IIRC. I believe headlamps had to be oil as well??

[YK 50A]

Lack of faith in the 'new-fangled' electric lights IIRC. I believe headlamps had to be oil as well??

 

As far as the unions were conerned, oil lamps had done the job for well in excess of a century.  Understandably perhaps, electric lamps weren't necessarily trusted.

 

I don't think so regarding headlamps although oil lamps must have been used on occasion.  They were mostly for train identification and a token attempt at increasing visibility for lineside workers and station staff.  The importance of the tail lamp was for signalmen.  That the train had passed the section and was complete because the tail lamp was attached.  It's a physical indication that there wasn't a portion of the train left in section and without it, the signalman couldn't send "train out of section".

 

Alun

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

I always thought the same as Stewart stated about oil tail lamps were carried on the rear of DMUs in the 60s. I can recall the Italian porter at Bedford using his newly learnt Anglo-Saxon words as he attempted to fit the lamps on their lamp irons fitted to the DMUs. Looking at photos of DMUs most taken of a departing DMU show a tail lamp but every now and then I find one with a red light glowing and no oil lamp. It seems both tail oil lamp and red light were in use, oil lamps being the most common. When it is a rear red light it is only one and to date I have only found photos with the left one illuminated, not both.

 

Now front lights are another topic that needs to be sorted out. Units fitted with four lights and no 2 or 4 figure head code display would have the lights on that displayed which class of train it was, just like the lamps on the front of a steam loco. Locos with head code displays would not normally have their side lights on. I say not normally as additional lights would confuse the signalman if they indicated a different class of train to that displayed in the head code. I recently saw a photo of Flickr where the lights were on and the unit had a head code display which was working. I should have bokmarked these photos. 

[uax6]

I'll wade in with my size 10's now.....

 

From the little I know (mainly from photos) is that the majority of the 1st gen dmus only had whites when built (many units only had one marker light anyway), so an oil tail lamp was carried.

 

I have read somewhere (recently at that, and I still can't remember where!) that twin electric tail lamps were only allowable in the rules with the introduction of One Man Operation (something to do with not having a guard to protect the rear of the train, so two lamps were deemed safe), and there after the marker lamp sockets were modifed to provide twin red tails. (although I don't think all units got them)

 

As an aside, the introduction of twin reds also allowed the drivers of DMU's to warn oncoming traffic of hazards by turning off the whites and displaying reds to the front.....

 

So Bachmann et al are wrong in providing reds on green and blue dmus!

 

Andy G

[jonny777]

I apologise. I very much stand corrected.

 

I have deleted my post and will try to engage my memory before I spout off in future.

[YK 50A]

...Looking at photos of DMUs most taken of a departing DMU show a tail lamp but every now and then I find one with a red light glowing and no oil lamp. It seems both tail oil lamp and red light were in use... 

 

Hello Clive,

 

Could the photographs with electric tail lamps be later photographs, from the mid/late 1960s perhaps?  I'm not sure what year electric lamps were allowed to be used, maybe 1964 or 1965.  Further to my post above, newer units were fitted with switchable red/white lamps and it would have only ever been one lamp illuminated, although I have no idea why it would be the left hand one!  Passenger trains, fully fitted freights and light engines would have had an oil lamp placed on the most convenient side for the second man, guard, shunter, etc, to get to.

 

I used to own an oil tail lamp bought after Collectors Corner moved to York.  It was made at Swindon, apparently in the early 1980s, and was still wrapped in brown paper.  Out of interest, oil lamps were in use until January 1991.

 

Alun

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Alun

 

I have just had  a very quick look through some of my books and came across a Derby lightweight, with speed wiskers, therefore dating it no later than 1962/3 with a red lens over the centre light and no tail lamp. It is on the Oxford-Cambridge line, at Bicester. The book is Lightweight DMUs by Evan Green-Hughes (Ian Allan ISBN 9 780711 034631)

 

It was not common practice but did happen. I have no knowledge of why, where, when and who let it happen.

 

When I say the left, I mean when viewing the rear of the train, I suppose nearside would be a more understandable comment. I cannot recall seeing one on the farside of the train.

[YK 50A]

Hi Clive,

 

I haven't got the book, but might it be the other way round?  What I mean by that is that the Lightweights were introduced in 1954, if it has the centre lamp probably 1955, and possibly the first units with the red lenses/filters (tomato/tomato) and before electric tail lamps were banned.  Another thought is that if the lamp isn't illuminated, it might just be that the filters were semi permanently carried in the centre lamp.  I did a search for "Derby Lightweight" images before I wrote this post and where a red filter or light can be seen, it is central, much like the Blue Pullmans, but later in their careers.  We'll probably never know; prototype for everything springs to mind.

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - RMweb cannot replicate diacritics ***

[stovepipe]

I can vaguely remembering reading that the rules allowing the use of the built-in taillights on the class 127s was only resolved a year or two before they were withdrawn in 1983, some 20+ years after their introduction.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

I always thought the same as Stewart stated about oil tail lamps were carried on the rear of DMUs in the 60s. I can recall the Italian porter at Bedford using his newly learnt Anglo-Saxon words as he attempted to fit the lamps on their lamp irons fitted to the DMUs.

 

I can vaguely remembering reading that the rules allowing the use of the built-in taillights on the class 127s was only resolved a year or two before they were withdrawn in 1983, some 20+ years after their introduction.

I wonder if the above porter mastered the use of the Anglo-Saxon words in that time?

[TheSignalEngineer]

There's a shot of the Birmingham Pullman, unfortunately undated, with the side lamps blanked out and a red filter in the centre but in the second one from 1961 it has an oil lamp

 

http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1312.htm

 

http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1295.htm

[Derekstuart]

A connected point is that MK3 Pullmans and I believe some sleepers had built in tail lamps, but these were never used as far as I know. Why, I have no idea.

 

I did ask my Traction Inspector Father once, but he muttered something about it "taking forever to get anything authorised these days".

[darrel]

The class 303 EMU s used oil lamps during test runs at least maybe even in the early days in service

[cobach47]

on the blue pullman all the lights were white. to get a red tailight they slid a red lens over the centre light and put blue ones over the outer lights.

are you restoring a triang unit or buying the Bachmann one?

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks - it was a general question about the authenticity of Bachmann DMUs which come with automatic switching red and white lights.  The answers above would confirm my suspicions that for a large part of the green diesel days working practices required a physical tail lamp and there was a lag in time whilst the rule book caught up with the available technology

 

Ray

..

are you restoring a triang unit or buying the Bachmann one?

[YK 50A]

A connected point is that MK3 Pullmans and I believe some sleepers had built in tail lamps, but these were never used as far as I know. Why, I have no idea.

 

I have wondered about that.  The Pullmans are Mk3Bs, 22 of a batch of 38 FOs which were built c1985.  Ignoring the DVTs and 'Royals', there are also 3 Mk3B BFOs which entered service in 1986.  Did all Mk3Bs have have built in tail lights?  The sleepers were/are Mk3As of course, but I believe the rest of the Mk3A stock weren't built with lights.  I was at Barrow Hill just before Christmas, Tornado was in residence with its support coach, from memory a Mk1 BCK.  I was mentally noting how much had changed from its state c1980 - train air brakes, berths and kitchen, land supply for the electrics - and it had been modified with built in tail lights, so I imagine that any restriction has been lifted, as per the TGS and DVT.  I saw Mk3 sleepers at Perth in December 1987, I had more eclectic interests than 'just trains' by then, but I remember wondering why the built in lamps weren't being used.

 

With regard to lights on models, my personal opinion is that they are a nice gimmick, a bit of fun.  Unless you can switch each individual lamp on/off and red/white, which I know some have got close to with DCC, it's unlikely to be truly accurate, apart from perhaps modern image.  While we're at it, 4mm scale workers to swap the lamps over and belching black smoke to go with the DCC sound.

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

The Pullmans are Mk3Bs, 22 of a batch of 38 FOs which were built c1985.  Ignoring the DVTs and 'Royals', there are also 3 Mk3B BFOs which entered service in 1986.  Did all Mk3Bs have have built in tail lights?

 

Google is my friend, I can answer my own question and confirm that all the Mk3Bs were built with tail lamps.  Here's a picture of a Mk3B BSO with a separate tail lamp and here's a contemporary photograph with the built in lamp in use.

 

Alun

[Derekstuart]

I'm GUESSING that it wasn't "built in lamps are barred from use" in the rule book but instead "....must be prepared with .... lamp fixed to iron...." A subtle difference that won't be lost on people here.

[russ p]

A connected point is that MK3 Pullmans and I believe some sleepers had built in tail lamps, but these were never used as far as I know. Why, I have no idea

 

I did ask my Traction Inspector Father once, but he muttered something about it "taking forever to get anything authorised these days".

One of the sleepers on the northern belle has built in lamps and they do get used when its on the rear

[Derekstuart]

Alun,

 

Are you sure about that? The pullmans DID have them and were B's. But there were some (not many) B series LHS FO and they didn't have them, nor did HST's, which were B's.

 

Russ,

 

I was talking about a conversation mid-late 80's. What caused the change to allow them, I don't know. Probably a similar change to that which occurred with the DMU's.