Triple consist. Imagine the sound?

[slipstream]

 

Has anyone ever tried this config?

[mjkerr]

Interesting to note the train being operated as two sets of coaching stock, with each one connected to each of the Class 37/4 locos
If you look at the ETH jumpers between the two Virgin livery coaches you will see they are not connected

The Class 37/4 loco at the rear is only providing ETH so could be a dummy, fitted with a sound decoder and set to idle only

[pheaton]

37/4s ETH index is not high enough to heat that many Mk2s that's why the train has been split in to 2

[slipstream]

ETH? Dummy car is a very good idea, though, never thought about that.

[pheaton]

ETH stands for Electric Train Heat, only 37/4s were the only sub class of 37 that could provide it, they have an index of 38 which equates to how much stock it can heat, for contrast a 45/1 or a 47 has an index of 66

 

each ETH unit = 5kw of power there for with an ETH index of 38 a 37 can supply 190kw you average Mk2 aircon has an ETH index of 5 which means each coach requires 25kw there for a 37 could heat 7 Mk2s at the most

 

Heat BTW doesent always mean heat....mk2s and mk3s and mk4s have air conditioning systems as well and this too would work off eth

[russ p]

A single 37/4 can be used to power more coaches than its ETH index providing the air con is switched off on various coaches and they are not on full heat.

[slipstream]

Ah understood, thanks. So, can you run a consist with one at the front and one at the back without running into problems or would it make sense to have the rear 37 stripped as a dummy with sound fitted?

[mjkerr]

can you run a consist with one at the front and one at the back without running into problems or would it make sense to have the rear 37 stripped as a dummy with sound fitted?

It would depend on the layout and number of coaches

This is why the HST only has one motorised Power Car

It would be more practical to have the Class 37 loco at the rear as a dummy

[pauliebanger]

It would depend on the layout and number of coaches

This is why the HST only has one motorised Power Car

It would be more practical to have the Class 37 loco at the rear as a dummy

 

On all my ZIMO diesel sound projects F6 'holds' the sound in idle (or any other power band desired, user selectable) at any speed.

 

So a powered model 'at the front' can be run with normal sounds and a powered model at the rear run in consist, but with the engine sound at a fixed power level, simulating ETH power only and of course running a compressor to operate brakes. (Compressor and brake sounds are part of the sound project and will work as normal even with fixed engine sound).

 

On the return run, the newly 'front loco' can be switched to operate sound as normal and the rear switched to operate fixeed engine speed.

 

Both locos' motors operate as normal in each direction. ZIMO users have been running combinations like this for years. Check out Class 25 ETHELs which can be run with Steam locos too!

 

I can't see any reason why ESU could not be made to oprate this way if they were programmed to do so. Ask your supplier for help.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[kevpeo]

It would certainly be a doddle to add an Ethel option to a v4 function button to operate in that way Paul. Kev.

[russ p]

On all my ZIMO diesel sound projects F6 'holds' the sound in idle (or any other power band desired, user selectable) at any speed.

 

So a powered model 'at the front' can be run with normal sounds and a powered model at the rear run in consist, but with the engine sound at a fixed power level, simulating ETH power only and of course running a compressor to operate brakes. (Compressor and brake sounds are part of the sound project and will work as normal even with fixed engine sound).

 

On the return run, the newly 'front loco' can be switched to operate sound as normal and the rear switched to operate fixeed engine speed.

 

Both locos' motors operate as normal in each direction. ZIMO users have been running combinations like this for years. Check out Class 25 ETHELs which can be run with Steam locos too!

 

I can't see any reason why ESU could not be made to oprate this way if they were programmed to do so. Ask your supplier for help.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

If the 37 is on the back the compressor will not be running as the master key will not be inn. Also when a 37 is ETHing the engine note doesn't change

[pauliebanger]

 when a 37 is ETHing the engine note doesn't change

 

Yep, that's what F6 does. Holds the engine sound at a particular power sound. This does not affect the normal running of the motor, nor is the engine sound affected by the motor or road speed. The default is 'idle', but a single CV value  can change the power loop held to any of the 'notches' in the sound project. Does not need a re-blow for that, just change the CV with a DCC controller.

 

As with any individual sound on a ZIMO, the compressor can be turned off, again using the DCC controller.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

It would certainly be a doddle to add an Ethel option to a v4 function button to operate in that way Paul. Kev.

 

Hi Kev,

 

Thanks for the confirmation. I thought it should be possible, but I am unsure of the mechanism with ESU.

 

Can this be done by any end-user with CV change using a DCC controller or does it require a Lokprogrammer and re-blow?

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[kevpeo]

The latter I'm afraid Paul. It would need to be built into the program first. Unless Bif knows better! Kev.

[pauliebanger]

The latter I'm afraid Paul. It would need to be built into the program first. Unless Bif knows better! Kev.

 

 

Thanks Kev,

 

So not quite like ZIMO then, where all you need is a DCC controller to make the changes.  (CV374 if you are interested, value is the Fkey number, range 0-28 and CV375, value is the number of the power sound loop to be 'held').

 

Shame, but at least it is possible if you can re-load decoders yourself or pay somone to do it for you as a re-blow, I suppose.

 

Have a great Christmas,

 

Paul

[slipstream]

Thanks for all your input on this subject. I am learning lots, quickly. Just to confirm, unlike the HST which is designed to push and pull from front to rear, class 37's are unable to do this?

[kevpeo]

You can do it, if you have a good speed match. It's just more likely to cause the stock in-between to de-rail! Kev.

[newbryford]

Thanks for all your input on this subject. I am learning lots, quickly. Just to confirm, unlike the HST which is designed to push and pull from front to rear, class 37's are unable to do this?

 

As Kev says - good speed matching if both ends are powered. If pushing from the rear, good couplings, bogies and free running stock are more important.

 

My NMT was powered one end only and ran as 2+5 with no problems. The set was fitted with Keen close couplers.

I also have a 31/3 coaches/dummy 31 fitted with Kadees and that's fine.

My 37 powered test train has both motored in top n tail mode with 4 coaches between, but carefully matched.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[slipstream]

Sorry I meant prototypically?

[newbryford]

Sorry I meant prototypically?

 

If the stock is through wired, then yes, they can operate as a multiple pair. I think this was the case for the Arriva Northern services when they used top n tail 37's on the S&C.

 

Much of the test fleet is through wired for MU operation and powered with 37's at either end.

 RHTT trains are through wired also.

And it's not just 37's - as long as the through MU wiring is suitable, then anything goes. Other well known top and tail trains include the Class 27's at either end of Glasgow-Edinburgh services before being replaced with 47/7 and DBSO operation.

There's quite a few more examples out there.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[russ p]

On some of the network rail test trains the coaches are through wired and have regulating air pipes so both the front and back loco's power up.this is also the same on railhead treatment trains.

 

The problem with long ,say over three vehicles it takes a while for the regulating (throttle) pipe to get pressure.

I once spoke to a driver who worked the Glasgow Edinburgh push pulls with the 27s,he reckoned when you opened them up you could go on holiday for two weeks and when you got back they might of started revving up!!!

[pheaton]

If the stock is through wired, then yes, they can operate as a multiple pair. I think this was the case for the Arriva Northern services when they used top n tail 37's on the S&C.

 

Much of the test fleet is through wired for MU operation and powered with 37's at either end.

 RHTT trains are through wired also.

And it's not just 37's - as long as the through MU wiring is suitable, then anything goes. Other well known top and tail trains include the Class 27's at either end of Glasgow-Edinburgh services before being replaced with 47/7 and DBSO operation.

There's quite a few more examples out there.

 

Cheers,

Mick

AFAIK the arriva Mk2s did not support through wired blue star, and as russ P pointed out you would also need a "through white pipe" for control air, and they definitely didn't have that, multi working is one of the most tempermental things on a loco.....a good example is on 26043 before i stripped it off multi working nearly wrote off 2 traction motors! because of water and shorts in the wiring looms

 

47/7s on the push pulls used a derivative of TDM, as very few 47s were fitted with multi working. Im not certain what the 27s used.

[legomanbiffo]

The latter I'm afraid Paul. It would need to be built into the program first. Unless Bif knows better! Kev.

My Class 25 chip already has ETHEL functionality built in, and works in the manner that Paul describes, ie it holds the loco revs higher than a normal idle and the throttle then has no effect. It's even easier to invoke than changing CV's, you just press a function key. The free-form nature of the ESU v4 programming makes it easy to achieve such functionality.

 

Bif