RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 January Model Railways features the plans for improving capacity into Waterloo. Among various options, the one highlighted by RM (on the front cover) is the possibility of double-deck trains. This is a subject that has been raised on RMWeb before. Opinions differ as to whether it is possible within the UK gauge. It certainly won't be as proposed in this article: EMUs of 9 26m vehicles! You wonder who they get in to do these proposals. I do actually believe that it is possible to do. Perhaps I need to get out the drawing board? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD but the punters hated them. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Didn't Mr Bulleid try that,- roasted summertime commuters anyone ?? edit - Ah, Andy just beat me to it !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 23, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD but the punters hated them. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. Let's talk modern trains (power doors, aircon, etc) please rather than bring out this old chestnut. The 4DD was not a double-deck train: a 1.5 deck train on a conventional underframe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 You need 6ft per deck, a roof, two floors and crearance over the rail, not do-able in 12ft, maybe in 13ft, doable in 14ft. Is this height available on the lines concerned? Then you have width issues for the lower deck as the current vehicle gauge narrows below 3 ft from rail. Will be interesting. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 From memory the opportunity exists because the structures on the route are going to be changed anyway in due course for the impending conversion to 25KV OHLE (much like 140 mph running, conversion always seems to be in "the not too distant future"). Personally I think it is something that we can and should be doing. The population will continue to grow and in 20 years we will rue the missed opportunity as overcrowding continues, lets try and future proof the railways not just keep up with the present! Re. Bullied's effort, I think that it is an unhelpful red-herring at this stage, clearly a poor design and totally unlike anything that would be used today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 Bridges and other structures are altered to introduce OHLE infrastructure, so why not to introduce double decker trains? A continental loading gauge (? like HS1) would give room for full sized double decker trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Let's talk modern trains (power doors, aircon, etc) please rather than bring out this old chestnut. The 4DD was not a double-deck train: a 1.5 deck train on a conventional underframe. Yes, power doors and air con are really going to solve the loading gauge issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 From memory the opportunity exists because the structures on the route are going to be changed anyway in due course for the impending conversion to 25KV OHLEWill still need a change of policy, however, other 25kV areas reduced the max vehicle height to just over 12 ft to provide clearance for the OHLE. The is going to need the minimum OHLE height being 2ft higher. It would be almost UIC gauge so they may as well do a proper job and make it UIC. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Well, as to the size needed for DD trains, my I point out that busses have been running round with double deck vehicles that are only 13ft1in. The problem is not so much the height that would fit (IIRC the class 60 is 13ft1 at the peak of the roof), but that the loading gauge is curved at roof level, meaning the stock would be very tight where people sit. This was proposed many years ago for the southern region by the RTC, using a coach based on the cartic4 wagons. I have a copy of a old modern railways from the 60's that had a outline diagram for the stock, which would be articulated, with the lower deck passenger saloon between the bogies, and would be used in push pull mode with southern region JA/JB loco's. The idea was dismissed because the operators said it wouldn't work due to the longer station dwell times that would result from not having a door to each compartment. Instead they went for platform lengthening for 10 coach trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 All the UIC gauge double deck coaches seem to have the full body width extending down as far as UIC gauge allows - alas in Britain that means they would be well and truly foul of station platforms. So in order to accommodate a full height double deck vehicle you need to alter the platforms to UIC structure standards, which in turn means you can't use passenger stock to UK gauge at those platforms. So the situation is very simple really - to introduce UIC gauge double deck passenger vehicles you shut the railway for X months in order to rebuild all the lineside structures and station platforms then reopen it as a UIC structure gauge railway. in the meanwhile everybody goes by 'bus - which they find cheaper and more convenient so they don't go back to the shining new railway (unless traffic delays drive them back). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Let's talk modern trains (power doors, aircon, etc) please rather than bring out this old chestnut. The 4DD was not a double-deck train: a 1.5 deck train on a conventional underframe. Stanier had air-con installed in the Coronation Scot stock in 1937. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I doubt I will see either i) a 25KV OHLE southern region or ii) modern double deck trains in use on conventional SE commuter routes before I retire. NR are in all sorts of deep do-do trying to get OHLE up on the GWML and around Manchester. The MML scheme appears to be slipping badly and there is not even mention of the electric spine in date terms now so completely screwing with the southern region is not going to be anytime soon. Whilst NR can future proof any bridges that are repaired, its a big difference to getting whole routes rebuilt as its not just bridges that change, its lineside equipment, tunnels, station canopies, signals. Raising bridges isn't necessarily easy either, especially in the heavily urbanised south where any new road level needs to take into account the surrounding roads & buildings meaning track lowering might be necessary. That's not to say its a bad idea, just a difficult one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 All the UIC gauge double deck coaches seem to have the full body width extending down as far as UIC gauge allows - alas in Britain that means they would be well and truly foul of station platforms. So in order to accommodate a full height double deck vehicle you need to alter the platforms to UIC structure standards, which in turn means you can't use passenger stock to UK gauge at those platforms. So the situation is very simple really - to introduce UIC gauge double deck passenger vehicles you shut the railway for X months in order to rebuild all the lineside structures and station platforms then reopen it as a UIC structure gauge railway. in the meanwhile everybody goes by 'bus - which they find cheaper and more convenient so they don't go back to the shining new railway (unless traffic delays drive them back). Well said Mike. A superb BR managers response to any difficult problem. Shoot the bu****s down in flames with a reasoned answer and carry on with the tea and buns. I was there as well. It can be done, and has been on several German U-Bahn routes to my knowledge. All it needs is time, thought and pots of cash. You can easily use BR gauge trains at a platform configured for UIC gauge, you add an temporary infill until you are ready to change over. Given the will and the pennies to do it, and anything is possable. Our Chinese friends would do it for a 100 year franchise! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Having travelled on European double deck trains and found them very comfortable, I think there is a lot of scope for making improvements to UK travel if they could be introduced. The slight narrowing of the downstairs is not a big issue. Downstairs can be used for 2+1 first class accommodation and bicycle storage (and possibly other things too). The double deck part is just the part between the bogies so it does help if long coaches are used. Double decking will only gain about 50% extra accommodation and not double since some accommodation still has to be provided on the in between level above the bogies for disabled etc. who cannot use the stairs. The pantograph and aircon equipment all goes above the bogies so does not impinge on the double deck headroom. I suspect that it might be possible to get away with slightly lower ceiling height than is used in Europe if required, but I suspect that will not be necessary. How high are European double deckers and how do they relate the the W10 gauge which is probably not that far out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Double decker trains into Waterloo. Here we go again. This idea comes round every few years or so then someone works out the cost and the total chaos it would cause and the idea goes away again. NR is under severe pressure to cut costs, the electrification projects underway are running late and over budget (massively so in the case of the GWML), deferments or even cancellation of approved schemes is distinctly likely. The "impending conversion" to 25KV referred to by earlier posters isn't going to happen for a very long time if at all and neither is this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 The double-deck trains I've been on in Europe are a complete pain if you're travelling with luggage and/or children. Trying to get up and down the stairs is really awkward. I hope they're never introduced in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold wombatofludham Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 Stanier had air-con installed in the Coronation Scot stock in 1937. My understanding is that whilst called "air conditioning" it was in fact "pressure ventilation" without the air chilling and humidity modification kit, so that in cold weather the external air was drawn over heating elements and ducted as warmed air into the train, but in warm weather external ambient temperature air was drawn into the coaches without any form of cooling or heating. Certainly advanced for the era but today air conditioning would have added refrigeration kit and be able to regulate humidity more efficiently. On the main subject I suspect there will be at least one total route upgrade including double deck train infrastructure modifications if only for NR to get a handle on the scope of the problem. The South West lines, possibly running into the old Eurostar terminal, might be a good springboard for such a project. Given it is the South east and London, money of course will be no object. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 You can easily use BR gauge trains at a platform configured for UIC gauge, you add an temporary infill until you are ready to change over. Yes, but no trains on other routes can use the modified platforms once the DD stock starts using them. Might be OK for Fenchurch Street where there is basically only one route but for something like the Waterloo network where it is most needed the whole inner or outer group would have to go to new trains and have platform infills removed all in one "big bang". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 PS: Mike, there is another way, but slightly more costly. Next to the UIC-sized platform are not 2 but 4 rails, one set slightly closer to the edge then the other. The near set is for UK loading gauge trains, the 'normal' ones for UIC loading gauge trains. It's a transient solution (3 decades or more, but still transient) to allow the smaller UK trains to use a UIC platform. Not new, it's been in use in Germany for a combined tramway/freight railway line, IIRC near Karlsruhe. Baunatal Stadtmitte near Kassel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Well, as to the size needed for DD trains, my I point out that busses have been running round with double deck vehicles that are only 13ft1in. The problem is not so much the height that would fit (IIRC the class 60 is 13ft1 at the peak of the roof), but that the loading gauge is curved at roof level, meaning the stock would be very tight where people sit. This was proposed many years ago for the southern region by the RTC, using a coach based on the cartic4 wagons. I have a copy of a old modern railways from the 60's that had a outline diagram for the stock, which would be articulated, with the lower deck passenger saloon between the bogies, and would be used in push pull mode with southern region JA/JB loco's. The idea was dismissed because the operators said it wouldn't work due to the longer station dwell times that would result from not having a door to each compartment. Instead they went for platform lengthening for 10 coach trains. Do you have the date of this magazine? I probably have it somewhere in my "collection", which also includes the remains of a model of a DD concept from BR Research which I thought came from the 70s (inherited from former boss). I'd be interested to see if they look like the same thing, but the files that went with the model were given to the NRM at privatisation so I have no details. The model shows the seating on the lower deck being inward-facing Tube style, but probably too close together to allow standing in between. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It looks like the double decker Z class running in France at 14'2" high should not take much modification to fit in to W10 which is about the same height (and larger that the UIC 'B' and B+ loading gauge which I think is widespread) give or take a few millimeters (Basingstoke has already had its platform canopy modified to W10 by a passing overheight container train that has proved the route was OK elsewhere too!). The only issue is car length and width at the bottom, but given the likely size of the order should it go ahead these things can be easily sorted, and I am sure that modern CAD techniques can produce a design with a waist in the middle to help with track curvature. The Europeans don't have a problem with using moveable steps to deal with platforms at various distances and heights, and that will probably be required if there are curved platforms. In practice it will probably only be worth double deckering once platforms get to 250m, and capacity is still a problem, and 80' coaches can be accommodated rather then 60'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lets get one thing straight - the Bulleid 4-DD stock was not a failure. It did exactly what he wanted it to do, which was to shut up commuters who kept asking for double-decker stock as some kind of panacea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Let's just be realistic and get those 5 wasted platforms back into service with some new crossovers first........ EDIT: This is also in the plan.................... Enabling trains to cross Mains to Windsors at Vauxhall - precisely as they could BEFORE the 1990 re-signalling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted December 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2014 Let's just be realistic and get those 5 wasted platforms back into service with some new crossovers first........ And Platforms 1 to 4 lengthened - I know that's already in the plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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