PAL Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Members familiar with K's coach kits will have experience of their white metal bogies. I get poor performance with the old (Romfords I think) blunt-ended pinpoint axles( if you know what I mean) running in the little pits in the white metal which is all K's used to provide in the way of bearings. The bogies are already assembled (with Araldite decades ago) and hence difficult to get at square on with a drill bit. How would members recommend that I tackle this job? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Remove th bogies, soak them In Paint stripper and after 24 hrs or so you should be able to pull them easily apart. Clean up, pop brass bearing cups in, and replace wheels with suitable (plenty of choice from Romford/ Markits, Hornby to Gibsons etc) depending on what you want to spend. reassemble and paint. Sorted, with luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 If you want to dismantle them (or just 1 side) try dipping them into boiling water or applying paint stripper to the join, may have to do several coats as I think Nitromores is now weaker. I think these options are only for the quick set version Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Remove th bogies, soak them In Paint stripper and after 24 hrs or so you should be able to pull them easily apart. Clean up, pop brass bearing cups in, and replace wheels with suitable (plenty of choice from Romford/ Markits, Hornby to Gibsons etc) depending on what you want to spend. reassemble and paint. Sorted, with luck! If they have wheels on be careful as the paint stripper acts with Aluminium (which I think the Jacksons were) very badly. Very good advice though as I have just unstuck a couple of K's wagons using diluted caustic soda. But remove the wheel sets first if metal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 If the Paint Stripper doesn't work, it may be necessary to saw through the bolster to release one side frame and the wheels. The pin point bearings can then be fitted, checking they are the correct distance apart (24mm for 26mm axles - a tad less for Romford bearings) and the original axles can be pinpointed or new wheels fitted. The bolster can then be soldered back together (the best way of assembling the bogies in any case IMHO). Low melt solder is easiest, but considering the bulk of white metal ordinary solder can be used with care - two spots and take care not to touch the cast sides with the iron. Alternatively, saw away the central boss and make a new bolster from metal or even PCB and fix it with two screws, which will enable the bogie to be dismantled for future maintenance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Take apart. Fit brass bearings as others have said. Replace the cast cross member with a piece of 20 thou or so brass strip. This will introduce some up and down movement and act as a simple form of compensation. Solder on suitable washers to obtain correct ride height. Not my idea but cribbed from PC coach kits. Hornby or Bachmann wheels are far cheaper than "scale" wheels and these days are pretty good. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Here is a K's LNER van (plus a lowmac) in the caustic soda solution, which softened both paint and glue, plastic wheels are fine but will be thrown away Scrubbed gently with a nailbrush to remove the loose paint A quick rub over with a burnishing brush after unscrewing the buffers and prizing off the break gear. The only damage was what there was already there as its an old model. Took very little time to do. As the previous posters have said, pin point bearings and a set of modern metal wheels will make all the difference. If the stretchers have to be sacrificed then so be it, hopefully it will not come to that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 I built one of their engineering dept open wagons a few years back on an Airfix meat van chassis with pin-points; it runs quite nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I built one of their engineering dept open wagons a few years back on an Airfix meat van chassis with pin-points; it runs quite nicely. Roythebus That's a new one on me, I guess it was either the LMS shock absorbing wagon or 3 plank, SR round ended wagon or the private owner 10 ton wagon. However if you are right then you have ruined my evening as I thought I had them all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 My warmest thanks to all contributors. I confess I cherished a secret hope that someone would come up with a magic fix that wouldn't involve dismantling the bogies; though deep down I think I knew I'd have to do it. Anyway, 40-odd-year-old Araldite jobs are surely rather dodgy by now. But at least I now know how to tackle the job. Hayfield: particular thanks for your several posts and the photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Pal Its a pleasure, if there is a lot of glue it might be worth trying to remove some of the surface glue carefully using knife/chisel/ drill/etc which might make the work a little easier. Please let us know how you get along Regards John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 It might just be possible without dismantling, but the castings are rather delicate and prone to fracture (guess how I know!), so I would not advise it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Trouble is that you need to remove and replace the wheels from the old non pinpoint Jackson wheels to something new with pinpoints. Secondly its the axle length of the replacement wheels, as they vary in length in some cases. Thirdly normally there is a boss that may need filing off. Finally what type of bearings to use, top hat, shouldered or flangeless. Sounds far more involved than it is, but a dry run is essential to ensure the best of fits Also only one side needs to be un-assembled Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted December 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2014 Could you not cut through the old axle? Then I would have thought that you will be able to get pin-point bearings in and then 'sneak' the new axle in when the bogie isn't looking..... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Trouble is that you need to remove and replace the wheels from the old non pinpoint Jackson wheels to something new with pinpoints. Secondly its the axle length of the replacement wheels, as they vary in length in some cases. Thirdly normally there is a boss that may need filing off. Finally what type of bearings to use, top hat, shouldered or flangeless. Sounds far more involved than it is, but a dry run is essential to ensure the best of fits Also only one side needs to be un-assembled Hi John, Just thought i'd mention this as I have a distant memory of having come up against this a good few years ago when updating the bogies on a couple of K's GWR 40' Dean vans. I'm pretty sure the old Jackson wheels used by K's used 3/32nd inch diameter axles. If i'm remembering right there is the added problem that modern pinpoint axles will not properly fit the old wheels. This is of course only if the OP was hoping to retain the old wheels in use to save costs. All new modern wheels are the better way to go of course - on my last few 'modernisations' i've used Hornby modern wheels running in tophat bearings - bogies dismantled one side by holding in boiling water to melt the lowmelt solder, cleaning up, modifying axleboxes and resoldering. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Could you not cut through the old axle? Then I would have thought that you will be able to get pin-point bearings in and then 'sneak' the new axle in when the bogie isn't looking..... Andy G Hi, On the face of it an excellent idea, the only problem being access within the assembled bogie to drill out the axleboxes to take the tophat bearings as the old K's bogies only had a dimple (sometimes within a cast boss). Good access is really needed to deal with the inner cace of the bogie sideframes. However your idea deffinatly deserves investigating more as in some bogies you have very likely hit upon a solution. Many thanks. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted December 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2014 Could you not melt the bearings into the casting? Getting the bogie to look the other way while you are doing it could be a challenge mind! Andy g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Could you not melt the bearings into the casting? Getting the bogie to look the other way while you are doing it could be a challenge mind! Andy g Hi, Any attempt to melt the bearings in would result in total disaster due to the fact that whitemetal is a low melting point alloy. The heat applied to the bearings would cause a break up of the whitemetal castings due to the fact that whitemetal goes 'crumbly' due to heat just before the point of change from solidus to liguidus state. The heat could not be controlled in any way. Another problem would be that if the heated bearing could melt whitemetal out of its way as it went in where would the molten metal go - onto the surounding casting and add to the uncontrolled melt unfortunatly. Your suggestion does of course work perfectly well if retro fitting bearings into plastic axleboxes and indeed is the method used by many modellers. A variation of this is 'easing' tight bearings that sometimes happen after building a plastic kit due to a slight twisting due to solvent action. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted December 30, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2014 Thats makes sense. What is required is a small dome shaped cutter with a 90* shaft that you could rotate to cut through working back and forth through 100* Could a dremel type tool be bheated and bent to produce such a tool? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Why over complicate it? Strip down, sort and rebuild. Do it right, do it once Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Hi John, Just thought i'd mention this as I have a distant memory of having come up against this a good few years ago when updating the bogies on a couple of K's GWR 40' Dean vans. I'm pretty sure the old Jackson wheels used by K's used 3/32nd inch diameter axles. If i'm remembering right there is the added problem that modern pinpoint axles will not properly fit the old wheels. This is of course only if the OP was hoping to retain the old wheels in use to save costs. All new modern wheels are the better way to go of course - on my last few 'modernisations' i've used Hornby modern wheels running in tophat bearings - bogies dismantled one side by holding in boiling water to melt the lowmelt solder, cleaning up, modifying axleboxes and resoldering. Regards TheWeatheringMan I do have a friend who actually turned the old style wheels in a drill so he could put pinpoints on the axle ends, I just change the wheels to more modern ones. I did obtain some new axles but was not all that successful in fitting them. One problem in fitting new wheels is the length of the axles, some makes are shorter than others which may help. As I said a dry run may assist, some have a small collar moulded in which may be needed to be removed, a standard top hat may work in some cases, others a waisted bearing might be better and the casting may benefit from the hole being counter sunk. The flangeless bearings being a bit hit or miss as once in cannot be removed all that easily. Also depends what track you are using with wheels, for code 100 or even standard 00 gauge code 75 the fineness of Gibsons may not run as good as Romfords/Hornby/Bachmann. Also working out axle lengths of various makes could be of benefit. Dont forget Ketsey underframes were known for not being totally square with each other and I guess the bogies may suffer this problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Thats makes sense. What is required is a small dome shaped cutter with a 90* shaft that you could rotate to cut through working back and forth through 100* Could a dremel type tool be bheated and bent to produce such a tool? Andy G Hi Andy, A tool is, or was, marketed to do this with plastic bogies and wagon underframes but would also work on whitemetal. It was essentially a short 2mm drill bit held in a sprung loaded unit that relied on the opposite axlebox and the 'target' axlebox for pivots, the spring pushing the drill into the material to be drilled out. I've made a couple of versions of this idea for myself. Your idea is in fact a very workable one, particularly if one only needed to do a small number of bearings. The tool would need thinking about a bit as its possible that to heat such as a Dremel tool for bending might 'draw' the temper of the steel and result in a cutting edge that would very rapidly go dull. There is much mileage in your idea - perhaps a cross between two ideas might work here as follows: Cut down a carbon steel (not high speed steel) drill bit so as to fit within the assembled bogie. Grip the drill bit in pliers and turn in the way you describe in order to produce the required hole for the bearing. Once this has been acheived the bearing could be secured with Milliput, which will give working time, and the new wheelset fitted by CAREFULLY flexing the bogie frames outward just enough to slip in the wheels. Adjstment will be possible before the Milliput sets and the bogie can be set aside on glass until all is set and secure. Hope thats of interest. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Why over complicate it? Strip down, sort and rebuild. Do it right, do it once Hi, Whilst i'd agree totally with you that this is the best way and would be my chosen method, there may well be situations where a modelled either can't or dosn't wish to attempt a dissmantle, bearing (pun intended) in mind that the old K's castings were somewhat delicate (and the years havn't helped here) and so an alternative way of achieving what the OP wanted to do is worth looking into is it not. As has happened in this thread a question was asked, suggestions made, potential solutions found and now its all in the public domain and might just be of interest or use to others seeking solutions to other problems. This is where RMWeb proves so valuable - acting as a catalyst for a line of thought that sometimes finds the answer to another modellers problem via a totally unconected and convoluted path. Long may it continue. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeatheringMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 TheWeatheringMan I do have a friend who actually turned the old style wheels in a drill so he could put pinpoints on the axle ends, I just change the wheels to more modern ones. I did obtain some new axles but was not all that successful in fitting them. One problem in fitting new wheels is the length of the axles, some makes are shorter than others which may help. As I said a dry run may assist, some have a small collar moulded in which may be needed to be removed, a standard top hat may work in some cases, others a waisted bearing might be better and the casting may benefit from the hole being counter sunk. The flangeless bearings being a bit hit or miss as once in cannot be removed all that easily. Also depends what track you are using with wheels, for code 100 or even standard 00 gauge code 75 the fineness of Gibsons may not run as good as Romfords/Hornby/Bachmann. Also working out axle lengths of various makes could be of benefit. Dont forget Ketsey underframes were known for not being totally square with each other and I guess the bogies may suffer this problem Hi John, Totally agree with all you say except that I think you are being a bit too polite (or diplomatic) about K's castings and squareness - or lack thereof !!. I too have 'pin-pointed' some older wheelsets in the past (on my lathe, having made a tool to do so) because i'm tight and didnt want to waste them. I do agree that in the situation the OP had replacement of the wheels might not be totally straightforward due to the very variations you have mentioned. Regards PS. On our 1960's BRWR layout built with Peco code 75 track we run a mixture of all the wheel makes, both old and modern, without any problems at all. All stock is fitted with 'sprat and winkle' couplings operated by under track permenent magnets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 A design for a suitable tool for opening out axleboxes to take pinpoint bearings was described in MRJ212. For a time this was produced by Alan Gibson Workshop and is show in this link; http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/RTR%20Drill.pdf Something similar is available from DCC Concepts (see Bearing reamers); http://www.dccconcepts.com/catalogue/h/dccconcepts-specialised-model-railway-hand-tools The Bob Payne/Alan Gibson tool was adjustable and therefore probably more adaptable. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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