Intercity (Swallow) 37's

[Derekstuart]

Hello all

 

I'm sure this must have been asked at some point, but I cannot find any reference to it.

 

I am really not an expert on 37's whatsoever, but from what I've seen and read the I/C 37's were all /5s and thus didn't have ETH. Yet none of the ETH /4's were painted in Swallow for the sleeper trains to Inverness and Aberdeen (and/ or other I/C duties).

 

I believe that by this time the ETHEL's had gone. So what was the rationale behind doing it this way? 

 

Thanks
Derek

[tractor_37260]

Hello all

 

I'm sure this must have been asked at some point, but I cannot find any reference to it.

 

I am really not an expert on 37's whatsoever, but from what I've seen and read the I/C 37's were all /5s and thus didn't have ETH. Yet none of the ETH /4's were painted in Swallow for the sleeper trains to Inverness and Aberdeen (and/ or other I/C duties).

 

I believe that by this time the ETHEL's had gone. So what was the rationale behind doing it this way? 

 

Thanks

Derek

Hi Derek

A few ex BG's were converted to generator vans to provide ETH.  These usually ran with a pair of 37's on the sleeper, but not always 37/5's, some 37/0's were also used/painted in IC Swallow livery - 37 251 "The Northern Lights"  /  37 221 and possibly one or two others.

 

HTH

Ken

Edited January 7, 2015 by tractor_37260

[Derekstuart]

Many thanks for that Ken.

 

I wasn't aware of the generator vans.

 

I assume it is because the /4's were already busy on other duties.

 

Thanks

Derek

[YK 50A]

Hello Derek,

 

Out of interest, here is a photograph I took of one of those generator vans at York last year.  Now in service with the VSOE.

 

Best regards,

Alun

[tractor_37260]

Hello Derek,

 

Out of interest, here is a photograph I took of one of those generator vans at York last year.  Now in service with the VSOE.

 

Best regards,

Alun

 

Generator Van 6311 at IS TMD as used on the sleeper trains.

[Pugsley]

I assume it is because the /4's were already busy on other duties.

It could be because the ETH index of the 37/4's wasn't high enough to supply the needs of the full sleeper train, but that is pure speculation on my part.

[Nile_Griffith]

Thanks Tractor for posting the pic of the BG/Generator van. That answered a question that has been lurking in the back of my railway musings for a while. I'd caught sight of a similar photo (possibly the same BG) but it hadn't been described as being a generator. I'd mis identified the full height side louvre's as being possibly a roller shutter door and wondered if this BG was kind of "Courier" modification.

 

Just goes to show that it's always worth keeping an eye on the forum even the threads that may not always be of immediate interest.

[mjkerr]

I worked on the InterCity sleepers between 1992 and 1994
Pairs of Class 37 locos were used between :
Edinburgh - Inverness
Edinburgh - Aberdeen
Initially there were two Class 37/0 (although the other two were nearing completion) in INTERCITY livery :
37221 and 37251

37221 had miniature snowploughs and round buffers
37251 did not have miniature snowploughs
37251 was named shortly after being painted into this livery
Due to these being the only two Class 37/0, a third had to be repainted :

37152

Initially there were two Class 37/5 in INTERCITY livery :
37505 and 37510
Due to these being the only two Class 37/5, a third had to be repainted (to prevent snatching) :
37685
 

Now some history about how their use came about
Prior to this a small fleet of Inverness based modified 47/6 had been in use
However, they were to be transferred away and replaced by a general pool of pairs of Motherwell based Class 37 locos, and it was planned to replace these with Class 60 locos
This would leave five Class 37 locos (later changed to three Class 37/0 and three Class 37/5) dedicated for InterCity sleepers, but Class 60 locos could also be used
The majority of these locos were used on WCML freight
On the sleepers Class 37 reliability became an issue
Initially a spare Class 37 was held at Edinburgh (Millerhill) to resolve the issue, but even this became a struggle
With enough notice a spare Class 37 was supplied from Motherwell, but any issue was usually only noticed as the northbound service was being prepared at Edinburgh and so no spare was supplied
In the event one of the four Class 37 locos failed, then the Aberdeen would leave with one Class 37 to ensure the Inverness had two Class 37
Later Class 60 locos were used on WCML freight, but due to poor reliability of both Class 37 locos and Generator Vans (see below), they never saw their planned use on the sleepers

There were also issues with the use of Class 37/0 and 37/5 locos together
Due to the ballast on the Class 37/5 locos this resulted in snatching and complaints from passengers due to the poor starts from station stops
This issue had been overlooked, as it was not an issue on freight trains, and as a result every effort was made to ensure they were not mixed which resulted in a third Class 37/5 loco carrying INTERCITY livery

For the sleepers three Generator Vans were modified :
6311, 6312, and 6313
However, they were extremely unreliable and 6311 was dumped at Inverness after catching fire, while a decision was made whether to repair or replace it
No sooner had this issue occured than 6313 developed a fault, and as a result it spent a lot of time on the Aberdeen service
However, a few weeks later it too failed but was sent for repair
Ironically on that service the sole Class 37 also failed (at Dundee) and so a Class 47/4 was summoned, the nearest being in Carlisle (arriving into Edinburgh nearly six hours late)
With no ETH, this Class 47/4 was used for two weeks while this Generator Van was repaired

At the end of 1994 it was decided to end the use of pairs of Class 37 locos, and Class 47/6 briefly returned from the 1995 timetable

Edited January 8, 2015 by mjkerr

[tractor_37260]

Initially there were two Class 37/0 (although the other two were nearing completion) in INTERCITY livery :

37221 and 37251

 

>> I can recall 37 152 being in "partial" INTERCITY livery, but what was the fourth 37/0 ?

 

Initially there were two Class 37/5 in INTERCITY livery :

37505 and 37510
Due to these being the only two Class 37/5, a third had to be repainted (to prevent snatching) :
37685

 

>> 37 683 also carried INTERCITY livery,  possibly the last repainted ?

Edited January 8, 2015 by tractor_37260

[mjkerr]

I can recall 37 152 being in "partial" INTERCITY livery, but what was the fourth 37/0 ?

37152 was complete, apart from the INTERCITY logos, it even had the swallows

 

It was only planned for their to be five Class 37 in INTERCITY livery, but they had to be split into two sets of three

Hence why 37152 did not have the INTERCITY logos (as only five sets had been supplied)

Sadly someone didn't realise they were the same logos as used on Class 86 locos, but approval was not given for their use!

 

There were only three Class 37/0 and three Class 37/5 in INTERCITY livery, used by InterCity :

37152

37221

37251

37505

37510

37685

 

Others were painted, but that was long after their use on the sleepers had ended (preservation)

Edited January 8, 2015 by mjkerr

[tractor_37260]

Thanks for taking the time to post the info on the 2x37 +GV sleeper workings, made for interesting reading.

 

As for my comments on 37 152 - it was the missing INTERCITY brandings I was referring to - but now we know why !

 

There were only three Class 37/0 and three Class 37/5 in INTERCITY livery, used by InterCity :
37152

37221
37251
37505
37510
37685

Others were painted, but that was long after their use on the sleepers had ended (preservation)

 

 >> 37 683 in INTERCITY livery was also used on the sleeper services  -  making 7 in total

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/httpwwwpeakdaleworkscom/8150462006/in/photolist-dqefp1-bzSapJ-bS1T4g-9pN5t6-bnyuXj-dULc5f-bnZtGx-a6mxqi-5ioiFP-5isyLb-5it3vs-5isycd-5isB3W-5it2Zo-5ioLWK-5isAtq-qmzawn-cvWPb5-dv8rBy-dPXc4V-bEfWQ1-qm3Zox-5imVDa-5imW6D-fp9H15-egxtbE-dVvMSR-dULc7Q-89cM1z-7DAC9s-bhXSyP-89cLWB-9Gd9Yp-c4RTKj-8jizRr-ep4hGQ-dv2vgZ-9qpetP-cvWPff-89g2KE-ddPrKT-cvWPjs-eVszKS-dULc73-bnVLs8-dUEB9D-dWpbQH-nMaJ6L-5mPfFm-85KLku

https://www.flickr.com/photos/killie65/4363606362/in/photolist-7DAC9s-bhXSyP-89cLWB-9Gd9Yp-c4RTKj-8jizRr-ep4hGQ-dv2vgZ-9qpetP-cvWPff-89g2KE-ddPrKT-cvWPjs-eVszKS-dULc73-bnVLs8-dUEB9D-dWpbQH-nMaJ6L-5mPfFm-85KLku-7GqNyZ-dJTbCJ-dFFV4U-5iokkp-5ioi8T-6eQrKN-dUEB66-9ZbPE2-5L33bs-dH69Dv-dULc8N-dUEB4c-8EebXT-c8U2zY-9xbu9G-89g2FL-89g2Ho-85FUAz-ddZXPJ-8WLGrM-dQgJhn-9D1GCj-dRVhdQ-9q6k1C-89g2yo-dvJKD8-9y9H2N-89cLYt-dVSMyz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mjkerr]

There were three Class 37/0 and four Class 37/5 in INTERCITY livery, used by InterCity :
37152 10 May 1992
37221 19 April 1992
37251 19 April 1992
37505 21 March 1993
37510 15 November 1992
37683 14 March 1993
37685 27 June 1993

You are quite right, I missed 37683
I've been trying to work out why!
So I put the dates the locos were allocated to the IISA pool
As you can see 37221 and 37251 were allocated to the IISA pool even before services commenced in May, so they could be repainted, and hauled the first southbound sleeper on 11 May 1992 (having worked Inverness - Aberdeen earlier)
37510 was initially a sole Class 37/5, but due to snatching was joined by two others four months later
With the numbers of 37683 and 37685 so close I had overlooked the later arrival of 37685, but this is the only one I have photos of

[55016]

An interesting insight! I travelled on the sleeper on a number of occasions in 1992 into 1993; and quite a few non IC livered 37s featured, which would concur with the lack of availablity on the livered locos noted above.

 

01.08.92 251 & 252 Aberdeen portion North

14.11.92 194 & 175 Inverness portion North

15.11.92 194 & 059 Inverness portion South

17.11.92 059 & 194 Aberdeen portion North & South

5.12.92 251 & 194 Inverness portion North

16.1.93 043 & 214 Inverness portion North

5.2.93 152 & 175 Inverness portion North & South

19.2.93 133 & 214 Inverness portion North & South

12.3.93 133 7 221 Inverness portion North & South

 

I'm sure we made best use of some sort of offer that was on! I lost interest by summer of 93, I don't think I've done the Inverness or Aberdeen sleeper since, although have done the FW beds a few times for an occasional walking weekend in the Highlands. 

[Derekstuart]

Thanks everyone for posting the photographs and information. That answers that quite nicely.

 

I had seen the generator vans before- but I assumed these were more recent modifications for specials and departmental.

 

Mijkerr,

You mention the plan for class 60's to have been used at one point. Do you know how far that plan progressed (clearly not as far as actual use)? The reason I ask is that I saw a mockup photo of a 60 in Swallow and didn't know whether it was an enthusiasts 'what if' or if it was something more official. Your comment here suggests erring towards the latter. I think a 60 would look smart in Swallow livery (there again, I've not found anything that DOESN'T suit that livery)

[mjkerr]

You mention the plan for class 60's to have been used at one point. Do you know how far that plan progressed (clearly not as far as actual use)? The reason I ask is that I saw a mockup photo of a 60 in Swallow and didn't know whether it was an enthusiasts 'what if' or if it was something more official. Your comment here suggests erring towards the latter. I think a 60 would look smart in Swallow livery (there again, I've not found anything that DOESN'T suit that livery)

The initial plan, as at 1992, was for five Class 37 locos in INTERCITY livery

37510 was trialled at the end of 1992, as this was a more suitable loco in the long term (refurbishment and ballast)

However, for the reasons explained above, snatching had been overlooked

As a result it was joined by 37505 and 37683 (although I thought it was 37685), and later by 37685

 

By 1995 the Class 60 fleet had pretty much taken over the freight duties of Class 37 locos, so the above plan would have been implemented, and was working reasonably well

In the event of a pair of these remaining Class 37 locos not being available then a Class 60 could have been used

As it was Class 37 locos were still in use, and this even saw some Class 37/7 locos used towards the end of their use

Sadly the sleepers never saw intended Class 60 use, the Generator Vans were just too unreliable

 

I myself had a Lima Class 60 repainted into INTERCITY livery, and numbered 48001

It was present at Model Rail Scotland on the Aberdeen Model Railway layout one year, and certainly gathered a lot of interest

[Derekstuart]

Thanks mjkerr

 

At the risk of making you tear your hair out with questions, I am trying to understand what makes the /5 'snatch'. ie is it something like needing to go to notch 2 because of the ballast weight or something?

 

I don't suppose you have a photo of your 60/48? I'd really like to see that.

[mjkerr]

At the risk of making you tear your hair out with questions, I am trying to understand what makes the /5 'snatch'. ie is it something like needing to go to notch 2 because of the ballast weight or something?

 

I don't suppose you have a photo of your 60/48? I'd really like to see that.

Snatching was worst when a Class 37/0 was leading a Class 37/5

 

Class 37/0

Tractive Effort 156kN at 13.6 mph

 

Class 37/5

Tractive Effort 184KN at 10.1 mph

 

As a result when moving off the Class 37/5 has more power at low speed and pushes the Class 37/0

The Class 37/0 then pushes back on the Class 37/5, in effect the Class 37/5 becomes a large heavy weight in between two springs, and in turn the coaches behind are pushed back

The longer the train the worse it is, and for a sleeper of 16 coaches the effects are felt worse from about coach 9 back

 

Once the train is above about 30mph the effect has been overcome

 

I remember having a discussion with a senior InterCity manager early in 1993 whilst travelling passenger from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, in order to work the southbound sleeper

He was acting on reports of the issues with this Class 37/5 loco and wanted to experience it for himself

On leaving Edinburgh we confirmed there was indeed a Class 37/0 and Class 37/5 combination (which would have been 37510)

On arrival we met up with the station shunter and with the Class 37/5 sandwiched between the Class 37/0 and coaches

The station shunter wasn't too happy at having to split the two Class 37 locos, run one round, and then reattach them

Equally, he wasn't aware there was a difference, other than the Class 37/5 having its flush nose

On our southbound journey there was some snatching, and even that he thought was too much

However, on our northbound journey there was the normal amount, and he agreed it was excessive

 

Sadly I didn't keep any photos of my Class 48 model

 

 

Edited January 9, 2015 by mjkerr

[YK 50A]

Due to the ballast on the Class 37/5 locos this resulted in snatching and complaints from passengers due to the poor starts from station stops

This issue had been overlooked, as it was not an issue on freight trains, and as a result every effort was made to ensure they were not mixed which resulted in a third Class 37/5 loco carrying INTERCITY livery.

 

At the risk of making you tear your hair out with questions, I am trying to understand what makes the /5 'snatch'. ie is it something like needing to go to notch 2 because of the ballast weight or something?

 

Hi both,

 

I was wondering about that.  My understanding (until now) was that the 37/5 basically had similar modifications to a 37/4, but without the ETH.  In other words, no ballast added, that was the 37/7s.  I'm not questioning your version, just trying to understand.

 

Thanks,

 

Alun

[37114]

I was just about to post the same as Alun, a 37/5 doesn't have extra Ballast, only a 37/7 does. The snatching is due to how the power was delivered as outlined by MJKerr.

[YK 50A]

So it was the re-geared bogies?

 

As an aside, I have wondered about the varying performance characteristics of locomotives working in multiple (as opposed to tandem).  Were there guidelines?  For example, it wasn't unusual to see a Class 20 helping out a Class 37 (or 40) and it still happens with DRS.  But photographic evidence would suggest it was much more unlikely to find a Sulzer Type 2 with the same.  Although I can remember a Class 25 and Class 37 rasping their way through York on a freight c1980.

 

Alun

[D6775]

The minefield that is EE Class 37's!!!!

 

Regarding the Snatching between 37/0 & 37/5 (or infact a /0 with any refurbished 37) has nothing to do with ballast weights (not that 37/5's had any, it was only /7's &/9's) i'm pretty sure its to do with the generator/alternator and the field diverts (effectively changing gear), I am pretty sure that /0's divert at a slightly different speed to a refurb hence the snatching. Also if a /0 overloads it will cause snatching which is worse when in a pair as the other loco is still powering.

 

I have been researching the IC 37's for a while for a future project so some of my observations:

37152 - Cast (believe ex deltic) bogies, IC stripes go through the bodyside grills. Black bufferbeam. Snow Ploughs. No Intercity branding.

37221 - Round buffers, IC stripes do not go through the grills, Black bufferbeam. Snowploughs.

37251 - Retained Frost Grills. IC stripes do not go through the grills. Red bufferbeam. Snowploughs. Named 'The Northern Lights'.

37505 - IC Stripes go through the bodyside grills. Black bufferbeam. Snowploughs.

37510 - IC Stripes go through the bodyside grills. Black bufferbeam. Snowploughs.
37683 - RSH grills. IC Stripes go through the bodyside grills. Black bufferbeam. Snowploughs.

37685 - IC Stripes go through the bodyside grills. Black bufferbeam. Snowploughs. Did have red bufferbeams but may have only been after the sleepers finished.

 

I know two had white roofs for a period, I'm pretty sure it was 152 & 251 for working the land cruise. There is probably more I have missed!!

 

Many other loco's appeared on the sleeper turns including /7's in a myriad of liveries, the most notable is probably 116 which at the time was still Large Logo Blue with Skirts. There will be many more but some of the liveries/loco's i know appeared:

Dutch - 066/071/087/099/133/170 (I am sure there were many more)

Construction - 214

RfD - 113

Coal - 692/693

Metals - 078/100

Petrolium - 080

LL Blue - 116/209

 

Cheers,

 

Al.

[tractor_37260]

 

I know two had white roofs for a period, I'm pretty sure it was 152 & 251 for working the land cruise. There is probably more I have missed!!

 

 

 

Al.

 

Al

   Yes I think it was 152 & 251 that got spruced up and had white or was it silver roofs added for a (Prince Charles) Royal Special ?

 

Your post has loads of useful info on the Swallow 37's, thanks for sharing.

 

A bit OT, but some time back, there were whispers that Rail Exclusive were planning a pair of Bachmann IC Swallow 37's as a L/E ! 

 

Regards

Ken

[Derekstuart]

And I thought I was asking a simple question too

I suppose this snatching could be thought of in a similar way to model rail when a double headed train reaches a bad spot on track (whatever they are!) and one momentarily dies.... 

 

SO- we NOW KNOW- The Scottish Highland lines are operated by 12v through the rails and one of the 37's encountered a bit of carpet fluff on a pair of points.

 

As an aside, I believe the Southern region had a similar issue with different batches of 421 'Greyhounds' working with other similar type units with different acceleration characteristics.

 

I for one would like to say a big thank you to everyone for putting in the above information and I did not realise the complexities of such things, but they make complete sense now.

[Derekstuart]

PS, in BR days, when the sleeper service left Edinburgh, my understanding is that it's cost centre was still Intercity, but the loco crew and indeed the 37's themselves were under Scotrail cost centre, which were in turn hired to Intercity- much like EWS/DB operating the 90s for first sleeper. I don't know if this is in fact correct?

 

The reason I mention that is that the day Euston to Edinburgh service (both in the days of the Carstairs split and at least up until they infected the line with electric) the service used to call at Haymarket on the way in, but with sectorisation it was stopped.

 

When I queried this I was told that the service to Waverley was Intercity, and when it left Waverley for Inverness it was in fact a Scotrail service- with Scotrail hiring the whole train from Intercity, with drivers paid by Scotrail. Intercity would not use Haymarket as it meant paying Scotrail a fee, which of course didn't apply to Scotrail on its portion of the journey. (this also used to apply to Euston to Birmingham NSE trains at Northampton, which were under the cost centre of Regional/Provincial from Northampton to Birmingham). In the case of HST's, I am told they differed and were operated solely by Intercity, using Intercity cost centre drivers through the whole length, but certain journeys were paid for by Scotrail to save them running  journeys that would duplicate East Coast HST's.

Considering that at the time everything was owned by and operated under the authority of BR Board, it sounds absolutely farcial and therefore I am inclined to think this was indeed correct in the few years running up to privatisation. As a point of note, I manage a bus company and there are similarly ridiculous issues that we have to do to comply with some arcane laws.

[mjkerr]

My understanding (until now) was that the 37/5 basically had similar modifications to a 37/4, but without the ETH.  In other words, no ballast added, that was the 37/7s

Yes, the 37/4 and 37/5 were pretty much identical, with the Class 37/7 being much heavier

However we referred to the Class 37/5 as "Ballasts" due to the higher power at lower speed and the issues when working with non-refurbished Class 37/0, not the actual ballast weights (as at the time there were only two Class 37/7 locos in Scotland)