Modern Shunting Operation Question

[The Black Hat]

Hello all.

 

Im just wanting to check with those in the know about the correct procedures for shunting on my privitisation era layout. The issue Id like to clarify is how many signals a reversing train can propell past to access its siding, or yard. As far as I am aware this is only allowed to be 1 signal.

 

Im using this old photo to demonstrate where the operation occurs.

 

 

The train arrives under the bridge on the track in the middle, it takes the line to the right, before then being put into the loop alongside the platform, where the 153 is. It means that the 153 would then be able to leave. However, I am thinking it does this mean the train needs to reverse back onto the main line (up to a limit of shunt) to access the line in the platform and then reverse again back into the siding shown on the right of the bridge.

 

Otherwise the option would be to draw forwards again onto the main and then shunt back into the line with the platform and then directly back into the siding - but, that would be past two signals and thus I believe is too great a distance to be allowed. If that were needed, the train would have to be top and tailed. 

 

Can anyone please advise as to best practice so that it can be replicated?

 

Thanks in advance...

[beast66606]

Is it a single line or double ? - if double the train would wait for the 153 to depart and use it's platform (it would be timetabled to do so), if single then you would have a signal rather than a limit of shunt, think of a limit of shunt as a fixed red, nothing can pass it.

[The Black Hat]

Both lines arriving at either end of the layout are single.

 

There is a signal protecting the junction on arrival at both ends as well. As there is also a siding for shunting next to the arrival lines but not long enough to put engine and wagons into.

[big jim]

If im reading it right the platform is occupied so the train goes into the loop, the 153 then departs and you want the train in the loop to go to the siding in the right foreground?

 

Im seeing it as roughly where you have taken the picture from there would be a signal that takes you into either the platform or various sidings so anything setting back out of the sidings would have to go behind that signal to effectively Do a signalled move toward the platform, as all tge points into the sidings would have to be electric/controlled (ie not handpoints as its a main runiing line) as you say there would be a limit of shunt on the mainline as such

 

in real life you would need a shunter with back to back radios for example to do the move, im struggling to think of any examples ive done/do which involve propelling out onto a mainline from a siding though!

[The Stationmaster]

1. Train proceed into the loop to clear the single line for the 153 to depart.

2. Once the single line is clear to the overlap at the next stop signal (i.e. one which the 153 has passed on the single line) propel back onto the single line - probably needs a Shunter on the ground working with a back-to-back radio to the Driver.

3. Propel back clear of the signal protecting the pointwork at the approach to the station and when that signal clears go forward into the platform line vacated by the 153.

4. When road reset and Shunter gives the ok propel back from that line into the siding.

 

In practice to save a  lot of s.. messing about I would time tthe freight to come down the single line after the 153 has left the other end of it (unless it's too long to make such timings fit).

 

The Rule Book restriction referring to 'only one signal' relates solely to signals displaying a main aspect and states that a propelling movement must not be made past more than one main aspect signal on a Track Circuit Block line.  In this instance you would only make a propelling movement (No. 2 in my list above) past one signal displaying a main aspect so no problem (assuming the line is worked by TCB of course).

[The Black Hat]

Yes I agree that it would be easier for the freight to arrive after the branch passenger has gone, but Im trying to make the movements more accurate on time pending on the branch being able to take so many trains. Im litterally cramming in tons by using every spare path I can try and work out, but the issue of the platform means two passengers cant pass here. Passing them elsewhere like the next station means I should have dead time on the layout, which is not good for operation.

 

Though Im trying to get realism the infrastructure around doesnt allow train frequency to give so many movements to keep operation going. It would be more sedate which about half whats running able to happen. But Im bending some rules and making things happen so that theres things moving for someone to watch.

 

Hence, the freight arrives before the passenger. It would be cleared in by the signal and then allow the branch passenger to go. It would then reverse to the main before accessing the platform and then drawing back into the loading area. The train will need to be split in the loop, as all of it is too long for the loading area. An 08 could be on hand to help shunt, or even top and tail things in, but Im hoping it would be ok to split it in the loop and then take parts back in.  

 

To be clear Im thinking all aspects of this would be done with a shunter and radio.

[The Black Hat]

To try and help Ive drawn this map using paint. Sorry if its looking crude.

 

 

The train arrives from point A, the network rail side entry and moves to the holding line (B). It then needs to go back to the main (A), then forwards to the platform © before backing into the loading area (D).

 

The train needs to be split, but that would be easier doing that by taking the whole train in, leaving some behind to be loaded and then drawing away with the train locomotive and allowing the shunter to collect those that are left.

 

Its a right nightmare to work on how the solution would be done. But Im checking that shunting limit rule means I cant draw forward and shunt past two signals as that means all shunting moves have to be done onto the network rail end.

[great central]

If im reading it right the platform is occupied so the train goes into the loop, the 153 then departs and you want the train in the loop to go to the siding in the right foreground?

 

Im seeing it as roughly where you have taken the picture from there would be a signal that takes you into either the platform or various sidings so anything setting back out of the sidings would have to go behind that signal to effectively Do a signalled move toward the platform, as all tge points into the sidings would have to be electric/controlled (ie not handpoints as its a main runiing line) as you say there would be a limit of shunt on the mainline as such

 

in real life you would need a shunter with back to back radios for example to do the move, im struggling to think of any examples ive done/do which involve propelling out onto a mainline from a siding though!

 

Worked by Colas, usually a 56 now, Boston-Washwood Heath steel. Backs out of the Boston Docks exchange sidings onto the main line, such as it is, over a double slip and level crossing where the single line from Hubberts Bridge returns to double track for the station. The exchange sidings, I think, were originally the main line to Spalding and Peterborough.  

It's usually waiting to do the move as the 18.44 Nottingham-Skegvegas passes, certainly was earlier this week.

[The Stationmaster]

I really truly can't see the problem. 

 

You can do as I said above and just drop part of the train  -  then draw the rest back out of the siding and either stand in the platform on Line C or go back to Line B if you want a passenger train to come in and leave before your second shunt

 

If you have main aspect signals at both ends and there isn't special authority to shunt past them in succession when propelling you simply take the engine off Line B at the right hand end, drop back down Line C to the sidings and collect the wagons which have been dealt with then go back via the right hand end and propel those wagons onto the others. 

 

Attach and then propel out of Line B to the left (Line A), then  go ahead into Line C and then propel the other wagons back into the siding to be dealt with.  You can do the whole lot with teh train engine that way - simples.