Ch4lkst3r Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi, I'm just planning my new N gauge layout and as per previous layouts it is going to be set at the end of steam/beginning of diesels (eg early 60s). I'm thinking of using colour light signals as I'd like to have working signals and making N gauge semaphores work is rather fiddly from past experiences but as I wasn't around at that time I'm just wondering how widespread colour light signals? Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 A lot of major centres, and trunk routes, had been equipped with colour-light signals by then. The Great Western, for example, had equipped Cardiff General (as it then was) and Bristol Temple Meads before WW2, these areas being resignalled again in the 1960s. Have a look at some of the photo-sites that have a historic element to get an idea of what was about:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/the-evanses/sets/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2015 The Southern end of the WCML was colour lights and most of the major centres had some colour lights - where is your model based, we can help better with a bit more information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 18, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2015 The early 1960s was the time of the first really big wave of mainline colour light signalling in Britain. Earlier schemes had either covered just large station areas (e.g Manchester Exchange) or had gone in with electrification schemes - e.g. various parts of the Southern and the GE suburban schemes of the late 1940s /early '50s and the only exception was the North Eastern part of the ECML with the Thirsk and Northallerton schemes in the late 1930s. The 1960s saw major resignalling and rationalisation work on much of the WR's principal routes - carrying on into the 1970s and '80s, further schemes associated with electrification such as the Kent Coast, Glasgow suburban, and the GE & Tilbury Line Schemes and the biggest of them all - the WCML electrification. Like the WR the latter continued into the next decade as electrification spread northwards on the WCML. So the answer to your qouestion really depends on where you are modelling and exactly when if you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch4lkst3r Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hi, Thanks for your replies. The layout hasn't really got a base as such as I just like models but want something a bit prototypical. Stock is mainly ex GW or ex LMS so probably be based as I am around the border between WR and MR so that I can get away with the crossover of stock. Layout plan as far as I have drawn so far consists of a four platform station situated on the convergence of two double track lines (with a 3rd single avoiding line making up a triangular junction - mainly for allowing trains to run back into storage sidings the other way round) with engine shed and a small goods yard with a short branch down to old canal wharf and industrial units. I'll probably be putting it up once complete with my attempt at signalling it to get feed back on if it seems correct. I'm used to modern signalling from working in the 12" to the foot scale but don't know if anything was done differently in the 60s to modern colour lights (obviously the signals would have multiple lights and not modern single LED type heads) Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2015 Obviously LED's weren't in use then,but a lot of early colourlights were of the searchlight type which had a single lenses ,or two if they were four aspect. Early GWR colourlights used two heads and clear was two greens,caution a green over a yellow and danger red over yellow. Basically what you would get in a semaphore signal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hi, Thanks for your replies. The layout hasn't really got a base as such as I just like models but want something a bit prototypical. Stock is mainly ex GW or ex LMS so probably be based as I am around the border between WR and MR so that I can get away with the crossover of stock. Layout plan as far as I have drawn so far consists of a four platform station situated on the convergence of two double track lines (with a 3rd single avoiding line making up a triangular junction - mainly for allowing trains to run back into storage sidings the other way round) with engine shed and a small goods yard with a short branch down to old canal wharf and industrial units. I'll probably be putting it up once complete with my attempt at signalling it to get feed back on if it seems correct. I'm used to modern signalling from working in the 12" to the foot scale but don't know if anything was done differently in the 60s to modern colour lights (obviously the signals would have multiple lights and not modern single LED type heads) Iain I think you could justifiably do it in either WR or LMR late 1950s/early '60s style claiming it as 'a large station with life expired signalling' Beware there were a lot of stylistic differences between WR and LMR at that time and they even used different colour paint on colour light signal posts. Almost inevitably around then for those Regions it would be multi-lens heads on the running signals. Obviously LED's weren't in use then,but a lot of early colourlights were of the searchlight type which had a single lenses ,or two if they were four aspect. Early GWR colourlights used two heads and clear was two greens,caution a green over a yellow and danger red over yellow. Basically what you would get in a semaphore signal All the earliest GWR colour light signals actually used multi-lens 3 aspect signal heads. They only fell into the idea of equating directly to semaphore signal aspects for the Paddington stationand later Bristol and Cardiff schemes plus the lines out as far as Southall West Junction from Paddington although even then the use of multiple aspect (3 aspect) signals on the E&C Lines was left in place but the 3 aspect signal on the Down Main at Paddington went (I suspect it was probably the oldest colour light signal the company had). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2015 Thanks Mike, when did the last of the semaphore aspect types disappear? I don't ever remember seeing them in any rule book were they in a separate publication? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2015 Thanks Mike, when did the last of the semaphore aspect types disappear? I don't ever remember seeing them in any rule book were they in a separate publication? They were in the Sectional Appendix (after the Regional Appendix was discontinued). The last ones to go were those at Bristol which went in 1972, those at Paddington (out to Ladbroke Grove) went in 1967, the ones at Cardiff went in 1966, those between Ladbroake Grove (exclusive) and Acton (exclusive) went in 1962 - mainly by conversion to multiple aspect heads but using new posts. The ones out to Southall went variously during the mid - late 1950s again basically by converting old heads to 3 aspect searchlights with a separate lamp to make the 4th aspect and all on new posts and structures with a few exceptions such as the gantry at Southall East Junction. The E&C line multiple aspect signals between Old Oak Common and Paddington were mostly renewed piecemeal and survived beyond general resignallings although all of them east of Subway Jcn went/were replaced in the 1967 resignalling because of changed line positions and designations. I think the last one mounted on timber posts, compete with finials, went no later than 1962 and possibly earlier - they dated from the 1920s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The areas that had the modernisation plan started were getting colour light signals installed and so in places were not uncommon! The approach from Seamer to Scarborough had four aspect signalling but each side was semaphore, many Distant Signals were replaced with colour lights! It is a case of what you want to model, as it is your layout! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I have put the GWR early colour light system in to JMRI so it is quite easy to implement if you wanted something unusual but perfectly possible, and you could use ordinary three or four aspect searchlights on the basis of a back story that the old early type signals had been re-purposed (like at Southall). The GWR did use a right mixture of head types depending on the sighting requirements so you would be in a good position that no one could argue that you got it wrong. Take a look at some pictures of Bristol Temple Meads for examples of almost everything. They bought their signalling from GRS and Westinghouse for good measure. If your station has more LMS roots you might have to be a bit more conservative, but I have put the LMS 'Mirfield' and 'New Lines' speed signals in to JMRI too so you have that as a fun option if you fancy some 5-aspect signals (just pretend that they had not got round to discontinuing the fifth aspect in 1959 on your line!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 19, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2015 I have put the GWR early colour light system in to JMRI so it is quite easy to implement if you wanted something unusual but perfectly possible, and you could use ordinary three or four aspect searchlights on the basis of a back story that the old early type signals had been re-purposed (like at Southall). The GWR did use a right mixture of head types depending on the sighting requirements so you would be in a good position that no one could argue that you got it wrong. Take a look at some pictures of Bristol Temple Meads for examples of almost everything. They bought their signalling from GRS and Westinghouse for good measure. Regrettably it contains an error - green shown in the stop signal (upper aspect) above yellow shown in the distant signal (lower aspect) did not necessarily mean the next signal was at danger unless it was the Home Signal of the next signalbox in advanced. It was possible to have a succession of signals, especially where there were controlled Distants, showing green above yellow. The only GWR colour light signals which gave a definite indication that the signal in advance was at danger were the 3 aspect signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 That could be hard to implement in automatic logic if the next signal after a green over yellow does not have a specific distant indication of green over green or otherwise. If implementing manual signalling of course with manually controlled distants there is no reason why they cant be left on. The automatic logic in JMRI just implements what can be done automatically. It is possible in JMRI (although not automatic) to create logic to be able to replicate the scenario where one distant can be the distant for a group of home signals (outer home, home, starter and advanced starter for example) and I guess that would be a similar situation to what you are describing and probably existed in the Paddington scheme with the manual boxes where the homes would be double head (unlike semaphores where only the advanced starter would potentially have a slotted distant arm). Setting up bracketed signals is similar fun, but the panel icons are there to make it easier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2015 Can JMRI handle outer outer and inner distants, which is what this sounds like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2015 Can JMRI handle outer outer and inner distants, which is what this sounds like? That was exactly what it could be - in fact I think in some cases more distants (i.e. = inner and outer) were added than had been the case with the previous semaphore signals. But the basic logic is very simple (although maybe not so electronically?) in that the lower units were distant signals - pure and simple. And the logic for operating/allowing a distant signal to clear is really basic - the key to it is also simple as the signals were no more than colour light direct equivalents of semaphore signals so each 'box had a stop signal or succession of stop signals with a distant signal applying to those stop signals or a series of distant signals applying to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Outer distants are a bit specialised but can be implemented in JMRI with a bit of manual logic creation. Probably best avoided unless you are trying to replicate a specific prototype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Electrification certainly didn't necessarily mean changing from semaphore to MAS (Multiple Aspect Signalling - the "correct" term for colour light signalling in those days). The Kent Coast 1959 electrification scheme was a classic. MAS was installed from Gillingham thorugh Faversham to Margate and Ramsgate, but not between Faversham and Dover via Canterbury East, despite the third rail being installed throughout. Similarly, Ashford to Minster via Canterbury West remained with semaphore for decades afterwards and is only now being changed to MAS (maybe complete by now) as part of the current Kent re-sgnalling scheme. As an ASM then Traffic Manager in all those areas in the early 80's, it was a hell of a job to remember all the applicable signalling rules and regs and especially special instructions, on which we were tested every 2 years, in case we were needed in emergencies (we were each on-call across neighbouring patches, 24/7 usually one week in three, or two if there was a vacancy). I covered many of the manual boxes at one time or another, when signallers suddenly went sick (until Division could send a relief), but thankfully those with semaphore largely had motor-assisted pulls for the distants (i.e. they were still semaphores but the action of the lever in the box would activate a motor to move the signal, rather than brute strength over a long distance of rodding or pulleys). That's why I don't have arms the size of a female Russian shotputter. Not an appropriate part of the world for Russ's layout, but a mix of MAS and semaphore on a layout gives a,lot of interest. You might have MAS in the station, with MAS on the approach, but semaphore signals on the route away from the station in one direction, once out of station limits, either an outer home or more probably a distant. The transfer point from one type of signalling to another would almost always by staggered like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2015 I'm going to have a bit of a mix,as there will be some fairly complex semaphores they will be posable rather than working, colourlights were fairly common round here. Cromer had a few and even south Lynn on the M&GN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 A link to South Lynn Junction box diagram.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8434800267/in/photolist-deUwTR-dRmyfP-iPoAfM-b8yZep-b5oz8c-bSbfnV-c5T5jy-awh8bK-ciMURW-b8xSkV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks for posting that. Did you get a main aspect to enter the yard in the down direction? Also as they were two aspect were they red and yellow or red and green just as a semaphore? Cheers Russ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks for posting that. Did you get a main aspect to enter the yard in the down direction? Also as they were two aspect were they red and yellow or red and green just as a semaphore? Cheers Russ The way i read it you would get a main aspect into the yard/loco. I suspect they displayed red/green but i've never seen anything to confirm it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2015 Strange but I suppose when they were installed full protocol's for colourlights had yet to be laid down. Talking of strange signals here is a strange one in Guisborough ,Yorkshire. It's not the clearest picture but no 25 signal is shown with a ring around it and apparently it was a gas lit colourlight! The reason being that trains in the Whitby direction used to call at the station then propel back out to the mainline. I've never seen a picture of the signal but I understand it lasted until the line shut in 64 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2015 Ashford to Minster via Canterbury West remained with semaphore for decades afterwards And no AWS... it was a b*gger in the fog... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2015 Strange but I suppose when they were installed full protocol's for colourlights had yet to be laid down. Talking of strange signals here is a strange one in Guisborough ,Yorkshire. It's not the clearest picture but no 25 signal is shown with a ring around it and apparently it was a gas lit colourlight! The reason being that trains in the Whitby direction used to call at the station then propel back out to the mainline. I've never seen a picture of the signal but I understand it lasted until the line shut in 64 The IRSE laid down the protocols for colour lights fairly comprehensively by 1924. Technically to read into teh yard it should - in those days and until the early 1960s - have been a miniature yellow but it clearly isn't shown as such on the diagram so could have been a main aspect of some sort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 The IRSE laid down the protocols for colour lights fairly comprehensively by 1924. Technically to read into teh yard it should - in those days and until the early 1960s - have been a miniature yellow but it clearly isn't shown as such on the diagram so could have been a main aspect of some sort. It looks as though the yard entry is governed by 47/48 discs and the colour light with the 'Y' indication would have to be released by one of those, does seem odd to give a main aspect in that situation. The semaphore on the slow line is better arranged. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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