We have a problem, Houston?.particularly if you build copper clad track

[gordon s]

Knew there were rumblings, but I see C & L now have this message on their website.  Anyone for Peco?

 

[polybear]

3.3mm wide is still available, albeit at 1.06mm thick.  So:

 

(a) Will 4mm wide become available at 1.06mm thick (can't see why not - adjustment of the router is the only thing required surely?)

 

OR:

 

( B) 3.3mm wide @1.06mm thick is about to become obsolete also            

 

 

Hang on a minute - I've just found this:

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=52

 

Enquiries & Investigations to find new sources

All Copperclad

 

Starting to look serious chaps.....

 

 

polybear

[gordon s]

I suspect that is just stock they have left. 1.6mm is too thick for my requirement to align with SMP and 3.3mm sleepers are available as pre cut sleepers.

 

I've looked at eBay and sheet is available, but how easy it is to cut down on my Proxxon saw has yet to be seen. Thankfully I've got a pack or two to complete the basic circuit of ET, but long term this could be an issue.....

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

1.2mm is still listed by SMP/Marcway in both SRBP and fibreglass:

 

 http://www.marcway.net/list3.php?col=head&name=PCB

 

3/64" (1.2mm) is the traditional thickness to match SMP Scaleway flexi-track.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[sp1]

This could be a serious problem (particularly as I have about a third of the track built for my new layout and was about to order some more) - I just hope SMP/ Marcway continue to be able to supply!

[Derby Road]

3.3mm, 4mm and 7mm wide strips, all 1.6mm thick still appear to be available from Wizard Models.

 

Cheers,

Gareth

[gordon s]

Thanks Gareth, but if you are matching up to SMP track you will require the thinner strip listed as 1.06mm on the C & L site or the 1.2mm listed as available from Marcway.  

 

1.6mm is used to align with C & L or Peco.

[polybear]

Out of interest, has anyone purchased any Marcway/SMP strip recently - is the quality an acceptable substitute for C&L (bearing in mind ballasting, painting etc. will disguise quite a lot)?  Or is the width noticeably variable etc.?  I recall Hayfield mentioning (from a purchase sometime last year maybe?) that SMP wasn't up to the standards of C&L (SMP is Guillotined, whereas C&L is cut using a router and so is much more consistent apparently). 

 

polybear

[sp1]

Out of interest, has anyone purchased any Marcway/SMP strip recently - is the quality an acceptable substitute for C&L (bearing in mind ballasting, painting etc. will disguise quite a lot)?  Or is the width noticeably variable etc.?  I recall Hayfield mentioning (from a purchase sometime last year maybe?) that SMP wasn't up to the standards of C&L (SMP is Guillotined, whereas C&L is cut using a router and so is much more consistent apparently). 

 

polybear

Also, does anyone know whether any of the various suppliers cut the strips themselves - I fancy having a go at a 2mm/ N gauge turnout: the rail is available elsewhere but the necessary copperclad strips only seem to be available from the 2mm society - this would be just a sideline/ experiment, so joining the 2mm society would make this an expensive experiment (I would, though, have no problem joining if my experiment is successful!)? I only ask as I wonder whether I could obtain a small supply as a 'one-off' initially.

[polybear]

I've a feeling that Marcway supply sleeper strip for 2mm - see the link above (I can't check cos' I'm at work and the company internet system blocks the link.  Must be subversive or deviant....). 

 

polybear

 

UPDATE:  A Google search confirmed the above (the bit about Marcway supplying 2mm scale strip, not about being deviant...)

[gordon s]

In terms of cutting your own strip, I have a Proxxon table saw than can cut fairly accurately, but looking at the blades, they recommend a carbide blade for difficult materials including fibre glass.  I was tempted to buy a blade (the normal ones are around £10) but with prices between £35 and £45 for the carbide one thought better of it…...

 

 

Martin, you are right, I did start building pointwork with a few SMP kits, but I didn't think they used FR4 in those days.  They were single sided strips and I may still have one or two kicking about, but thought they were a much cheaper material.  I haven't tried their FR4 strips, but will order a few to see how they fare.

 

 

 

 

[polybear]

Hi Gordon,

Out of interest, which model of Proxxon saw do you have please? I've seen  them on Youtube and even the smaller (cheaper - sub £100 mark) seems a nice piece of kit, particularly for modelling applications (perhaps not for building baseboards though?).

 

Out of interest, I've just compared sleeper materials from both C&L and SMP:

 

SMP

Material used during the manufacture of an SMP Turnout kit purchased many years ago (10+?  - it cost £3-25....).

Nominally 4mm width (correct for a turnout timber) and 1.20mm thick.

Timber width (over a sample of ten sleepers) was as follows:

4.0mm, 3.78mm, 3.87mm, 3.85mm, 3.99mm, 3.90mm, 3.89mm, 3.91mm, 3.81mm, 3.79mm

The Copper Clad is single-sided, and a light brown in colour - I suspect this is FR2 SRBP (Paxolin?):

 

http://www.circuit2u.co.uk/Single-Sided-Copper-Clad-Laminate-1/0-FR2

 

Sleepers appear well cut - the copper edges are nice and straight etc.; the edges of the underlying material have a very slight roughness (guillotined?) but this wants looking for, and in any event would be completely hidden by ballasting etc. anyway.  The variation in timber width from the nominal 4mm isn't apparent in practice.  The resulting turnout was the first I've ever built, and despite being stored loose in the drawer for over ten years is still perfectly flat and all timbers free from warping. If the material being supplied by SMP/Marcway is comparible to this, then I would be happy to use it.

 

C&L Finescale

Material used during the manufacture of a length of straight trackwork - see here (post #77):

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69145-attention-00-sf-track-builders/page-4

 

The Material was purchased perhaps 6+ years ago, when Brian Lewis still owned C&L.

Nominally 3.2mm width (correct for a plain timber) and 1.02mm thick.

Timber width (over a sample of ten sleepers) was as follows:

3.26mm, 3.21mm, 3.28mm, 3.31mm, 3.26mm, 3.14mm, 3.22mm, 3.16mm, 3.27mm, 3.29mm

The Copper Clad is double-sided; not sure of the material though I suspect this is fibre glass (FR4?)

Sleepers are very well cut/machined - the copper edges are nice and straight etc.; the edges of the underlying material are very smooth (router cut?).  The accuracy and finish of the C&L material is superior to the SMP material (of 10 years ago); however it is fair to say that when laid and ballasted any differences wouldn't be noticed (in fact even prior to laying then any differences would probably only be noticeable using a magnifier & vernier.  **One difference to bear in mind is that C&L plain sleeper material is 3.3mm wide, whereas SMP is 3.0mm wide**

 

It would be interesting to know if the current SMP products are still of a similar standard.

 

HTH

 

polybear

[polybear]

Some pricing info may be useful:

 

C&L Finescale Copperclad strips 15" x 4mm wide x 1.6mm - 10

£10-50  (i.e. 7p per inch)

Marcway Copperclad strips 18" x 4mm wide x 1.6mm - 12

£8-50 (i.e. 4p per inch)

SMP Copperclad strips 18" x 4mm wide x 1.2mm - 12

£8-50 (i.e. 4p per inch)

 

C&L Finescale Copperclad strips 17" x 3.3mm wide x 1.6mm - 10

£10-50  (i.e. 7p per inch)

C&L Finescale Copperclad strips 17" x 3.3mm wide x 1.06mm - 10

£10-50  (i.e. 7p per inch)

 

Marcway Copperclad strips 18" x 3mm wide x 1.6mm - 12

£8-50 (i.e. 4p per inch)

SMP Copperclad strips 18" x 3mm wide x 1.2mm - 12

£8-50 (i.e. 4p per inch)

 

Note that Marcway supplies/owns? the SMP products. Also:

1. Marcway are discontinuing (already have?) stocking/supplying SRBP (Paxolin) sleepers - they now supply Fibre Glass (not sure if its single or double sided though)

2. Marcway/SMP 3mm sleepers are slightly under-width at a scale 9" wide; sleepers for plain track are normally 10" wide; C&L 3.3mm sleepers work out at 9.9" wide.

 

HTH

polybear

[Jintyman]

As a new track builder I had my first order of copperclad and rail from Marcway late last year. All my subsequent orders have been from C&L.

I was lucky having chose the C&L route for sleeper height @ 1.6mm.

 

The 2 packs of 4mm wide by 1.6mm height strip I purchased were, at the time, ok, I dressed the edges a touch with a file as recommended. But once I had a look at the difference between the Marcway and the C&L, the finish was much better with the C&L. Also I had a couple of pieces of 3.3mm in with the 4mm with the Marcway, might of been a simple mistake as it was only in one pack. But I'm using those as tie bars!!!

 

The C&L is double sided, where the Marcway is single sided and brown in colour as mentioned before.

 

I really feel for the individuals working at 1.06mm height if the supply of this will be compromised in the future.

 

I hope my information is some help to someone.

 

Jinty ;-)

[polybear]

Thought I'd add some comparison pictures of SMP and C&L 4mm Copper Clad (not recently supplied material, which should be borne in mind):

 

 

SMP on the left, with C&L on the right.  Both are 4mm, as near as makes no difference (I did find one strip of C&L material in the pack which measured out at 4.20mm wide...)

 

 

C&L at the top, SMP below; apart from the colour difference you'd be have a job to know the difference, and that's before ballasting, painting & weathering.

 

 

The guillotined edge of the SMP material.

 

 

The machined edge of the C&L material.

 

HTH

 

polybear 

[gordon s]

Hi Gordon,

Out of interest, which model of Proxxon saw do you have please? I've seen  them on Youtube and even the smaller (cheaper - sub £100 mark) seems a nice piece of kit, particularly for modelling applications (perhaps not for building baseboards though?).

 

 

 

I have the KS230 and found it invaluable.  Cuts most modelling materials and was wonderful for slitting down cork strip underlay to a specific size to get the correct width for single and double track.  The proverbial knife through butter and a very clean edge.

 

You can get one for around £100 and this package from Chronos is quite good.  No connection, but I have used them in the past without problem.  The other supplier I would recommend is Axminster Tools.

 

Lightweight and easy to move around.  Footprint about the size of an A4 sheet of paper.

 

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/engineering-tools/2013/proxxon-ks-230-saw-with-precision-fine-blade-from-www-germantools-co-uk/

 

http://www.axminster.co.uk/proxxon-ks-230-saw

[polybear]

I've a feeling you're gonna cost me money Gordon

 

polybear

[sp1]

Does anyone know of a source for reasonably priced PCB sheet - I am wondering about the feasibility of a home made router table using a mini-drill/ dremel with appropriate cutting bit?

[polybear]

There's loads on Ebay, though I'm not sure if it's a fair price or not.  I suspect larger sheets get the price down significantly, but then shipping becomes an issue.  Also, using a router will result in a fair bit of wastage, plus the risk of going through cutters fairly quickly.  It may not be worth the hassle, unless you want custom widths not available from C&L or SMP.

 

If you do go down this route then watch out for the dust...

 

polybear

[sp1]

I had thought about the wastage and the dust, but your point about the wear on the cutters is a good one: I wore out two files before realising that using files on copper-clad strip was not a good idea! I now use strips of sandpaper for any filing needed!

[jamie92208]

Having read this thread I was also concerned as copperclad is very usful stuff.   I realise that railway modelling is a minor use of it and most goes to the wider electronics industry.  Some years ago the yelow backed stuff was replaced by fibreglass, I believe on health and safety grounds due to the residues from cutting the yellow sheet.  I had a conversation with a gent at Marcway when i was last there and he said that there were very few suppliers of the strips in the UK.  If there is a wider problem in the supply chain due to some sort of edict about how the material is handled and procesed it mught be worth some further investigation.

 

Jamie

[polybear]

I've just had a very useful discussion with Marcway/SMP Technical Advice Line regarding copper clad:

 

1. Both 4mm and 3mm pre-cut strip costs £8-50 for 18ft (Glass Fibre); the Paxolin/SRBF type material is a bit cheaper at £7-50 for the same quantity.  The thickness is 1.2mm (1.6mm is also listed @ 3mm wide) and both materials are single-sided.  Note that Marcway/SMP actually market the 3mm wide material for HO Scale (3.5mm to the foot, which scales out at 10.28" wide).

 

2. Pre-cut sleepers are also available (32mm long for 00; 34mm long for EM) - these are cut at 3.5mm wide, which scales out at 10.5" wide.  (The closest width available to 10" is 3.3mm - to the nearest 1/10th of a mm - this is the width that C&L use).

These are available in a pack of 100 (£6-50) or 1000 (£57-00); the latter is the most economical and works out at 4.5p per inch of material; uncut strip works out at 4p per inch.  You *may* have to sand one end of the cut sleepers slightly, due to the cutting process.

 

3. Non-standard strip widths (e.g. 3.5mm, which is normally only available as cut sleepers) would probably be available also if requested (it may take a week or so) and would be cut in-house (Guillotined); regular sizes are cut by a pcb company and the cut edge finish is described as being "very high" (Laser cut/sawn) I believe.  

 

4. Apparently Marcway have been using Fibre Glass material for it's own custom pointwork for some years, one of the advantages being that the strip is very flat and strong - the SRBF/Paxolin strip may well have a curve to it.

**I've got sample of both types - the Fibre Glass being C&L double sided and the Paxolin being SMP single sided - both can very easily be made to curve/straighten just by drawing it thru' finger and thumb**

 

5. It does seem that Marcway still have plenty of the Paxolin material, so both types should be readily available; one advantage of Paxolin is that it's easier to sand/file/drill and is kinder to cutting tools, as Martin Wynne kindly pointed out.

 

HTH

 

polybear

[gordon s]

Thanks Brian. Some very useful information.

 

I have been using the cut sleepers from Marcway for some time.  The original ones were square both ends, but as I mentioned before, they now appear to have a break off point and need to be sanded at one end. They are fine to use and are very much part of the pointwork on ET in the transition from the 4mm turnout sleepers to plain track.  Here's pic of a plain sleeper to show the cut end and break off end.

 

As with all copper strip, I give them a quick rub with a fibre glass pen before attempting to solder.  It easily removes any film/oxidisation that may have formed and ensures a very clean joint.

 

[sp1]

I've just had a very useful discussion with Marcway/SMP Technical Advice Line regarding copper clad:

 

1. Both 4mm and 3mm pre-cut strip costs £8-50 for 18ft (Glass Fibre); the Paxolin/SRBF type material is a bit cheaper at £7-50 for the same quantity.  The thickness is 1.2mm (1.6mm is also listed @ 3mm wide) and both materials are single-sided.  Note that Marcway/SMP actually market the 3mm wide material for HO Scale (3.5mm to the foot, which scales out at 10.28" wide).

 

2. Pre-cut sleepers are also available (32mm long for 00; 34mm long for EM) - these are cut at 3.5mm wide, which scales out at 10.5" wide.  (The closest width available to 10" is 3.3mm - to the nearest 1/10th of a mm - this is the width that C&L use).

These are available in a pack of 100 (£6-50) or 1000 (£57-00); the latter is the most economical and works out at 4.5p per inch of material; uncut strip works out at 4p per inch.  You *may* have to sand one end of the cut sleepers slightly, due to the cutting process.

 

3. Non-standard strip widths (e.g. 3.5mm, which is normally only available as cut sleepers) would probably be available also if requested (it may take a week or so) and would be cut in-house (Guillotined); regular sizes are cut by a pcb company and the cut edge finish is described as being "very high" (Laser cut/sawn) I believe.  

 

4. Apparently Marcway have been using Fibre Glass material for it's own custom pointwork for some years, one of the advantages being that the strip is very flat and strong - the SRBF/Paxolin strip may well have a curve to it.

**I've got sample of both types - the Fibre Glass being C&L double sided and the Paxolin being SMP single sided - both can very easily be made to curve/straighten just by drawing it thru' finger and thumb**

 

5. It does seem that Marcway still have plenty of the Paxolin material, so both types should be readily available; one advantage of Paxolin is that it's easier to sand/file/drill and is kinder to cutting tools, as Martin Wynne kindly pointed out.

 

HTH

 

polybear

Thanks, that's very useful to know! And cheaper than C & L (my last order) - I feel a spending spree coming on!

 

I now know not to use any kind of file on copperclad - I now use a folded over piece of sandpaper: not sure of grade, but fairly coarse - this is sufficient to produce a smooth edge to the strips (the backing is quite stiff, so no need to wrap it around a block: hope this is useful to someone....

[polybear]

Thanks Brian. Some very useful information.

 

I have been using the cut sleepers from Marcway for some time.  The original ones were square both ends, but as I mentioned before, they now appear to have a break off point and need to be sanded at one end. They are fine to use and are very much part of the pointwork on ET in the transition from the 4mm turnout sleepers to plain track.  Here's pic of a plain sleeper to show the cut end and break off end.

 

 

Many thanks Gordon - do these measure out at 3.5mm wide as listed on the Marcway website, or 3.3mm wide as you mentioned in your post #2117 on Eastwood Town please?

 

polybear