North British Railway 6 Wheel Coaches.

[jamie92208]

It's good to see the progress that people are making with the etches. Mark was over at my house this morning an the 1st and brake 3rd that he has made from the two test etches are coming on very nicely. We spent half an hour going through photos and finaly find evidence of the gas pipe that runs along the roof to the 5 gas lamps from one end.

 

One other feature that we both looked at and which I can't quite get accurate is the commode handles. These look to be peculiar to the North British and the same design seems to appear on both Holmes and Reid coaches. As some of you will know I'm now working with Pete Mullen of 62C to develop some Homes bogie coaches. The first is one of the 7'6 wide luggage composites. I'm also want to learn to draw in 3D to produce patterns for lost wax castings. My first project may well be a commode handle that, if it works, Pete will then sell via 62C as a castings.

 

It is obvious that the actual handle is offset from the vertical line of the door frame by a couple of inches. It looks however a if it is mounted into the door frame rather than the panelling which would make structural sense. What I can't make out accurately is the shape of the pillars tat connect the handle to the door frame. Are they L shaped, curved or just at an angle. I'm also looking for the profile of the main handle, which appears to be flat on the outer surface with chamfered edges.

 

If anyone can help me with a decent photo of a North British Commode handle I would be very grateful.

 

Also if anyone is still wanting any etches my remaining stock will be with me at Warley, where I'll be helping to operate Hochstadt.

 

Jamie

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

Thank You Ian! That's what I hoped would appear - much obliged

 

I mentioned that the CR coach showing a gas cylinder; here is a portion of the photo from the CR coach book , the building date is 1881, coach later modified; showing that gas cylinder.

 

 

Yours Peter.

[NBR906]

Well holiday over and not only back home but back to work!

 

Managed to go through my references and the gas tanks on NBR 6-wheel carriages are 5' long x 1' 6 7/8" diameter.

The 4-wheel tanks are 8' 8" long by comparison.

 

As to location, hopefully the attached diagrams explain better than words.

Also on the drawing is the alignment of the gas feed pipe from the carriage end to the lamps, in this case for a 5-comp 1st.

Note, that unlike in the image of the CR carriage which has been converted later in its life to gas, the tank bottom will only just be visible below the solebar.

As for the door handle, this taken of the NBR Holmes bogie on the Strathspey Railway.

For more images taken this year of the carriage, again see the posts on the NBRSG forum site.

Sadly, I do not believe this vehicle will last much longer..........

http://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=297

 

Hope this helps

Ian

Edited October 26, 2016 by NBR906

[nigelb]

Hi Ian  really usefull   stuff there  one question  the drawing of the underframe is that looking down from above of  up from below   ??  this would change the location of the gas  cylinder

Nigel

[jamie92208]

Hi Nigel.   This drawing has turned up from I know not where and together with the one above puts the matter to rest.

 

 

Hope it's of some use.

 

Jamie

 

Hi Nigel.   This drawing has turned up from I know not where and together with the one above puts the matter to rest.

 

 

Hope it's of some use.

 

Jamie

 

[NBR906]

Hi Ian  really usefull   stuff there  one question  the drawing of the underframe is that looking down from above of  up from below   ??  this would change the location of the gas  cylinder

Nigel

 

The underframes are drawn as if you had turned the model carriage upside down and looking at it.

 

Jamie - that looks like one of the images I gave you last year on the USB stick at Telford.

[nigelb]

just spent a very happy   hour  working on the break third body  . yes i know   there is a lill  whoops on the length  so  i have decided to  solder the 2 ends to the 2 sides  ala  plastic wagon kit , and shorted  the floor   its also got a few half etches  that are full etches  lol  

I have also been playing with different temp solders   with much  hilarity   note to self  use  solver solder before  white metal and things will stay put  

also decided i need a bigger soldering iron

also had a go at the guards  ducket the  reject  etches  are  missing  the overlays  so i have tried some  thin brass shim  and it works  just need to add the beading 

 

this is why i got  the  trial etches so i can play  without  thinking OMG i have ruined  it lol

I know  there are more people out there who have bought these coaches  so  come on  show and tell 

[nigelb]

my new bottle  ( 1st bottle LOL)  of phosphoric flux arrived  this morning from hobby holidays (very satisfied customer) this means all i need now is a bigger soldering iron  possibly  orrr  my gas soldering torch might work better ( being into H&S i have done a Coshh assessment  and  already have a fan for forced ventilation plus a suitable face mask) 

 

Questions for the experts  will  whitemetal solder work with phosphoric flux

[jamie92208]

my new bottle  ( 1st bottle LOL)  of phosphoric flux arrived  this morning from hobby holidays (very satisfied customer) this means all i need now is a bigger soldering iron  possibly  orrr  my gas soldering torch might work better ( being into H&S i have done a Coshh assessment  and  already have a fan for forced ventilation plus a suitable face mask) 

 

Questions for the experts  will  whitemetal solder work with phosphoric flux

Yes I,t's the best flux to use.   Tin the area of brass with normal solder, then put some flux on it then cut a lump of low melt and place it on the fluxed area.  If you can get to it, heat the rear of the soldered area until the low melt melts.  You can use any size of iron that does the job depending on the thickness of brass and how far away any other fittings or joints are.   Then carefully drop the white metal fitting into the small pool of low melt, after brushing flux on the fitting.   You can often do this after removing the iron as the low melt does not solidify very quickly.  Then quickly adjust the white metal fitting and hold it until the low melt goes of.

 

Hope that that is helpful.

 

Jamie

[sulzer27jd]

Have the 4mm NBR coaches ever been brought to the marketplace? And if so by whom? I cannot seem to find any of the suppliers listing them.

 

Cheers

[jamie92208]

Have the 4mm NBR coaches ever been brought to the marketplace? And if so by whom? I cannot seem to find any of the suppliers listing them.

 

Cheers

 

As far as I know Ian Terrell is doing them but don't know how much progress has been made.

 

Jamie

[NBR906]

As far as I know Ian Terrell is doing them but don't know how much progress has been made.

 

Jamie

 

If you go back to page 1, posts 8, 12 and 20 will show you some of my 4mm NBR 6-wheel carriage developments.

 

If I was only doing the etches, then you would have had them 4 years ago but then you would find that you could not complete them as castings and other detailing parts are not available.

It is my intention to be able to supply a complete kit, less the usual wheels, couplings etc.

​However, all these needed test building (done) chassis development (onto 3rd version and proven in OO and P4)

I certainly now have a better understanding and sympathy for the likes of Hornby and Bachmann when announced new models are delayed......

This is for me, just as it is for everyone else a hobby and has to fit in with my job, family and domestic duties.

 

Attached you will see how far I have got with producing those castings, all of which take time and money.

The bottom right casting is the former Decent Models alarm and gas control which I would prefer to replace with something better.

 

 

These have required learning new skills (ie 3D CAD and printing)

Incidentally a benefit to the 7mm modellers who will have also discovered that the detail parts were not available either.

Where do you think the masters for 62C Models parts came from? 

 

For those who make the pilgrimage to ModelRail Scotland 2017 in February at the SECC, you will also see a new rake of my carriages on Burntisland 1883 which includes some earlier NBR prototypes under development.

(Shameless plug for the show and the groups layout!)

 

My website is long overdue an update and after the NBRSG journal is posted this week then hopefully I can show what has been happening the past year.

http://www.nbr4mm.co.uk/

[PeterR]

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks for the update, and look forward to the kits when you can.

 

Yours Peter.

[Shez]

On the last lap with detailing before painting. Sourced some brass tube  for the gas tanks at Wakefield show and they are now attached to the brake third and ready to go on the first. I also acquired some plasicard strip and tube which have been used to make the roof gas supply pipes and the to represent the guttering on the edge of the roof. 

 

One thing that I would appreciate is your thoughts on is the fittings on the coach ends. Most of the initial drawings I had and passed on to Jamie seem to show a curved handrail and steps at both ends. However some drawings seem to suggest otherwise. Photos are even more contradictory. Some show steps at one end only, and in one case a double set of steps are shown. Would this be a result of modification, or could different batches have been turned out differently? If there is a set of steps at each end should there also be a small roof handrail at each end? 

 

Again initial drawings seem to show the gas control and alarm equipment on the same end - but photographs cast some doubt on this. 

 

Having done a "research as you build" approach with these first two coaches, I want to be on firmer ground in planning the next batch.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Shez

[NBR906]

The following is a generalisation but should answer your query regarding the end hand rails.

 

When Drummond introduces the design of both the 4 and 6 wheels carriages to the NBR, he uses the body width of 7'6".

The body ends have 3 steps on the left side only with a curved handrail reaching just under the roof with a single hand-grab on the roof itself, above the steps.

The right hand side has a short and straight handrail.

You will get away with choosing either end for fitting the emergency alarm and gas control gear on the all First and Third.

On the Brake Third and Brake Composite, I believe they should be on the luggage compartment end.

 

(An exception are the 4-wheel PBV and BT vehicles which have the 5 steps at one end only

This is because the guards windows are at the opposite end!)

 

After Holmes takes over c1883, he continues with the design but gradually introduces a couple of visual changes.

There is a move to 5 steps at one body end only with curved handrails either side of the steps. The roof will have 2 grab handles above the steps.

The plain body end has the short and straight handrails. The emergency alarm and gas control gear is also on the plain end.

 

The body width is increased to 8'0" with the exception of the guard/brake vehicles which continue with the 7'6" width.

This is so that the guards look-out ducket stays within the loading gauge!

The only visual clue to the body width is that on the 7'6" vehicles, the solebar and headstock are flush at the corners while the 8'0" vehicle has the headstock extending beyond the solebar.

 

Hope this helps.

Ian

[nigelb]

With all the information that is accumulating i see a possible booklet or short document possibly getting put together

[Shez]

Thank you very much for that useful information Ian. Very much appreciated. 

[nigelb]

Treated myself to George Dents book   Building Coaches  a complete guide for railway modelers  so busy reading up  and  gaining lots of ideas

[Shez]

Ready for the paint shop.

 

Both the First and Brake Third are now ready for painting. Then there are just details to add. Buffers, couplings, door and commode handles, brake shoes and the gas control levers.

 

 

The roofs are now completed as are the ends and under frame. Most parts have come from my scrapbox, 

 

 

 

I have also begun to make the interior using some spare bits of Plasticard

 

 

I am very pleased with the outcome so far. I don't pretend they are 100% accurate to any specific vehicle but I feel give a sound enough representation of an NBR suburban coach. More than anything I have learned a lot from the construction. For the moment they will be put to one side. As painting is a garden shed job, this will have to wait until the Pennine climate is more favourable. I also have to admit that in my initial construction of the sides I didn't take enough care and soldered on some of the door etches with the hole for the handles on the same side as the hinges. There has therefore had to be some drilling and filling!

[nigelb]

the new toys  have arrived.

1. the bench drill   15 inched  high  with  electronic speed control  plus  a triple pully system seems to be solid       48 pounds  from china 

2 the 2 axis milling table   needs to be tweaked a bit  but should be  ok 0.2 mm graduations on the hand wheels  28 pounds from china

only problem so far is the slots on the table  do not quite line up with the ones on the drill base  so a little filling was in order

 

more info to come as it gets used 

[Shez]

Did you hear the one about the bloke who was on RM Web for a year before he realized that the little button at the top with the red number was for personal messages?

 

Apologies to those who have tried to contact me this way, and for what must have seemed a consistent level of rudeness in not replying, especially to those who have sent me such useful information.  Tried to reply to all today. 

 

IT seems to have been designed with the purpose of confusing me. I just decided to click on it today and see what happened!

 

Mark (Shez)

[jamie92208]

Some news about the etches. Mark and I have never had any desire to set up in business but were happy to share our project with others. We have now sold the tooling and design rights to Peter Mullen of 62C models. He will be marketing the etches as complete kits with wheels, castings and roofs etc.

 

Mark and I do however have small stock of etches remaining. If anyone wants any please get in touch. I will have the stock with me behind my layout, Lancaster Green Ayre, at Alexandra Palace in March and will also be at the St Neots show a fortnight earlier. Please let me know by PM if you would like one of these.

 

Both Mark and I have enjoyed the experience and Mark has enough etches to produce a rake of NBR suburban coaches. I have learned a lot from my first journey into producing etches for rolling stock. Up to now most of my etches have been parts for structures on my layout. I will be continuing to produce artwork for Peter and the first bogie coach on a 7' 6" underframe is well underway.

 

Jamie

[nigelb]

Rght  as i am going to be seeing  Lancaster Green Ayre in the flesh at Ally Pally and I have  done enough playing  with the part  brake 3rd etches  to feel confident enough to go for a real  coach.

Tonight's plan was to identify and  separate / clean up the chassis  parts.  I just need to dig out my home made gas  cylinders ,The short foot step supports and Westinghouse reservoirs, the rest is done  as per the pic below.

 

Tomorrow  night will be  simpler    push through the rivets

 

This will be a  stage by stage  with any notes  on  fiddly bits and how i over come them

Tip one to remove the little pips left  from when you remove the etches  from the runners  a small whetstone is very usefull

Edited January 31, 2017 by nigelb

[nigelb]

Job for tonight was the pressing out of 122  half etched rivets in the W irons, the top foot board  and the solebar overlays. I just remembered  that the outside W irons  do not need the top  7  rivets  pressing  as they are  behind the solebar 

 

I had thought to use an old  model drill press as a riveting tool to give me consistency  but in the end i found an old school compass  with the point filed  down just a touch  and held in one hand gave  good results when pressed on a piece of 3 mm ply

 

Cannot see the rivets  but they are there.  and just worked out the photo was from a scale 100 feel away  so  you should Not see the rivets 

 

 

tomorrow is the attaching of the solebars  and center  W irons  I have a cunning plan  to do these

[Shez]

When I built the first two coach chassis I did not have the axle boxes or springs. Remember the middle axle box has to go through the W iron from the back. Check it will go through OK beforehand. I had a bit of a job getting them to fit when I tried to add them afterwards.