Periscopes on coaches

[Monjac]

I notice a number of coaches on SR   that periscopes were fitted through the roof.  I find them intriguing . I have found some references e.g. Bluebell Railway , but no proper explanation of their function and effectiveness.

How useful were they ?

What was the guard able to see ?

Was the real purpose just to check signals.?

Where they better than side duckets ?

Is the birdcage a further development of the idea ?

Were periscopes restricted to Southern Region ?

Look forward to learning something new....

 

[petethemole]

I remember looking through a periscope in a brake on the LMR which I assume was ex-LMS. I wondered why the guard would need to look along the roof.

 

Pete

[ColinK]

I remember looking through a periscope in a brake on the LMR which I assume was ex-LMS. I wondered why the guard would need to look along the roof.

 

Pete

To check if James Bond is running along the rooftops?

[phil-b259]

I notice a number of coaches on SR   that periscopes were fitted through the roof.  I find them intriguing . I have found some references e.g. Bluebell Railway , but no proper explanation of their function and effectiveness.

How useful were they ?

What was the guard able to see ?

Was the real purpose just to check signals.?

Where they better than side duckets ?

Is the birdcage a further development of the idea ?

Were periscopes restricted to Southern Region ?

Look forward to learning something new....

 

Wrong way round.

 

The Birdcage was fine while coach heights were low but once companies started making them as large as the loading gauge would allow throughout the vehicle length, if the guard required a view along the top of the train then periscopes were the only way to do it.

 

Duckets were again only possible while coaches remained significantly narrower than the loading gauge. Thus Maunsell restriction 4 stock required the side profile to step inwards and go flat on their R4 coaches for duckets to be included. R1 and R0 stock (which was narrower and flat sided) did not feature duckets.

 

They (periscopes) do seam to be a 'Southern' thing though.

[Monjac]

That is interesting phil - b259 but what were they looking out for - presumably only signals and to check the train was still complete.?

[Grovenor]

Periscopes were fitted on BR Mk 1 coaches, not just on the Southern. I always understood they were a substitute for duckets. I don't recollect any vehicles having both.

Keith

[Monjac]

Thanks for that informative reply Wheatley

[Harry Welch]

I've recently been reading about certain details of the 1963 Great Train Robbery.  The Blackpool Gazette, on the 50th anniversary of the crime interviewed local retired Passenger Guard Peter Davis (79). He had worked the Up postal the previous week and stated that he observed the signals at Sears Crossing (where the mail train was held up) change from Green to Red and back to Green as the train approached. He says that he clearly observed the signals through the periscope in the Guards van.

He and the driver reported the incident but as no fault could be found they were thought to be lying. On hearing of the robbery a week later he realised it was probably the gang not getting it quite right. He thought that if his report had been taken more seriously at the time thing might have turned out somewhat different!

Sorry for going slightly off topic but thought it might be of interest.

[Oldddudders]

Until relatively recently, the guard, not the driver, was in charge of the train. Thus the requirement for the guard to monitor signal aspects was paramount. Having spent time in a guard's brake observing signals it required, as with so many railway matters, substantial local route knowledge. Which was a yellow signal, and which the new Local Authority sodium lights? Periscopes made an important contribution to train safety.

[phil-b259]

Until relatively recently, the guard, not the driver, was in charge of the train. Thus the requirement for the guard to monitor signal aspects was paramount. Having spent time in a guard's brake observing signals it required, as with so many railway matters, substantial local route knowledge. Which was a yellow signal, and which the new Local Authority sodium lights? Periscopes made an important contribution to train safety.

 

Interesting.... but presumably once the 'train' also became the 'locomotive' (i.e. a multiple unit) maintaining that distinction became much harder to justify over time.

[AberdeenBill]

How would the guard combine signal observation with his other duties, especially checking tickets throughout the train?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[phil-b259]

How would the guard combine signal observation with his other duties, especially checking tickets throughout the train?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

As Wheatley says, Traditionally the guards duties did not involve checking tickets. The person who went along the train and performed said duty was called a 'Traveling Ticket Inspector'. On many Heritage railways this tradition is maintained and the Guard has nothing to do with tickets.

 

In the mainline the idea of having the guard check and sell tickets really started to take off in the late 60s and early 70s as stations became unstaffed and the need to cut costs to the bone was the order of the day. As time went on the concept was expanded and Guards became 'Conductors' who lost the specific duty of observing all signals* while on route (as opposed to before starting from stations) in favor of ticket checks being undertaken between stops.

[Jim]

I remember my old instructor saying that when over-head line equipment started to be installed, the guards complained about arcing blinding them while using the periscopes.

Jim