Questions about penzance sleeper train formations BR blue era

[Clagsniffer]

I have a couple of questions regarding the formation of sleeper trains down to penzance (thanks to flood). The questions relate to the coaching stock within the consist.

 

The first rake is all mk1 stock and is formed, GUV, 4 SLC, SK, BFK. Now obviously with there being no mk1 BFK available RTR, would it be feasible to stick in a mk2 BFK instead? Also there are no SLC available either, only SLSTP and SLF, but I'm sure I read somewhere that a SLC could be made from a Bachmann SLF by painting out some of the first class yellow stripe, is this correct?

 

The next rake is GUV, SLEP, SLE, SLEP, BG, BFK, 4 TSO.

Am I right in thinking that the sleeping cars in this rake are the mk3's? I think the day coaches are meant to be mk2d's but could I use non air con mk2's instead?

 

The last question is about motive power. Would the mk1 rake be typically class 52 hauled and the mk3/mk2 rake be class 50 hauled? Or could other classes be seen?

 

Thanks in advance.

[YK 50A]

Hi,

 

I had a similar project modelling the York to Inverness Motorail - or a representation of it, circa 1978 - the full rake was 15 vehicles with a 16th added at Newcastle.  I didn't have to worry about the sleepers as it was 4 x SLSTP.

 

However, the passenger carrying vehicles were BFK, FK and Pullman Kitchen First.  While I believe at the time Mk2Zs were used in lieu of Mk1s on the ER, I couldn't find any photographic evidence of Mk2Zs on this particular service.  The Bachmann Mk2Z BFK would have needed a renumber and while it wouldn't necessarily have been incorrect, it wasn't correct either.  Have you looked at Southern Pride Models?  I would have needed to go down that route for the Newton Chambers TCVs anyway.  They also do a Mk2D BFK, and TSOs if you don't like the Airby version.

 

Alun

[Clagsniffer]

Hi alun, thanks for the reply.

 

Good call with the southern pride models range. This could be an option. Am I right in saying the mk1 coaches they do come with pre painted sides? And that the mk2d coaches have etched parts and require painting?

 

Cheers.

[YK 50A]

Hello again,

 

I never got round to ordering or building any, but my understanding is that the Mk1s are available in the ColourMaster (pre-painted) and EtchMaster ranges, where as the Mk2s are EtchMaster only.  Have a look at what Brian Kirby did here, including a Mk1 SLC.  I cannot link to the respective pages on the Southern Pride Models website, but I note that both the ColourMaster Mk1 BFK and sleepers are out of stock in blue/grey.  .

 

Someone more knowledgeable will no doubt correct me, but regarding the SLC, I understand it is essentially the same as an SLSTP, so a Bachmann should be fine.  Just so you know, Bachmann gave the SLF an SLSTP roof in blue/grey and the SLSTP an SLF roof in maroon.

 

Alun

[Siberian Snooper]

When I travelled up to London, during the late 70's and early 80's at the start of an all line 7 day rover, the Plymouth portion was mk 1 or mk 3 sleepers, it consisted of 2 sleepers and a 2nd class coach with 47 on the front, this was then put on the front of the Cornish portion. No idea of the consist of the Cornish portion as by that time several pints of sleeping juice had kicked in.

[JeffP]

I only did Paddington-Penzance once by sleeper, as part of an all line Rover.

 

We left Paddington behind a Class 50, they attached a second at Bristol, and we were piloted over the South Devon banks by a Class 31. I'm unsure where that was attached, or where it came off, but we arrived at Penzance behind TWO Class 50's.

[MJI]

Sleepers to Paddington in the early 80s.

 

Late Mark 1 era

 

14 or 15 coaches. Always a 50 usually a pair

 

Do you want me to look up some notes on real formations?

[Clagsniffer]

Hi MJI, if you could look up some formations that would be great if you don't mind?

[Gwiwer]

Paddington - Penzance sleeper formations have varied as often as the breeze!

 

For some years in the b/g era there were six early Mk2 "wakers" which formed a Penzance - Paddington - Manchester and return diagram while the sleeping cars reposed at Old Oak Common through the day.  You pulled into the hallowed portals and could sleep in until 07.30 but were briskly ejected from the seats two hours earlier as that portion had to be cleaned and formed the 06.00 to Manchester.  As I recall that was BSO, 3TSO, TSOT (65xx batch, later TSOB 66xx batch) plus FO.  At times a Mk1 RMB was substituted for the Mk2 catering vehicle and for  short time the stock was air-cons with TSOs of the 62xx batch.  I think the sleepers at the time were four SLEP (one of which was to/from Plymouth) and a BG.

 

As BR tried to kill off the service by stealth its formation was cut.  Paddington - Manchester workings ceased making the six-coach seated portion redundant.  Immediately the formation came down to BSO-TSO-TSOB-4SLEP (again one only ran to/from Plymouth) and with a BG until the general withdrawal of Mk1-style vans.  Then the Plymouth coach was axed and the formation became BSO-TSO-TSOB with the latter replaced by a sleeper lounge car once they were converted.  Sleeping cars were often reduced to just two making only a 5-coach formation for the entire trip.

 

Since the Mk3 seated coaches have become available the regular formation has also become effectively one class only with between 3 and 5 SLEP (normally 4) plus the Mk3 lounge car, a "TSO" and one of the unique Mk3b "BFO" vehicles.  On regular occasions one of the TSOs is replaced by (or sometimes augmented with) another BFO.  Last summer I was treated to a 9-coach load, equivalent to about an 10-coach Mk1 train, for the first time in many years.

[Gwiwer]

In more recent years the regular motive power has been a single locomotive throughout.  Now a class 57 it was previously entrusted to class 47 and before that class 50.  When Plymouth had a sleeping car to attach / detach the train engine normally did the shunting.  

 

Operational requirements sometimes dictated that two locos were on the train though timings and load haven't demanded that for many years.

 

In the hydraulic era my experience was that a 52 would take the train (of which there used to be more than one and every night of the week) from Paddington to Plymouth.  Post-1971 it worked through to Penzance or was exchanged for another but before then a 42 was often used through Cornwall and the overnights were also among the last passenger duties the D600 class 41 worked.

 

One of my first overnight trips had Western Princess leading from Paddington which was swapped at Plymouth for D601 Ark Royal.

 

When train have reversed direction such as on those occasions when they are diverted via Castle Cary - Yeovil - Exeter the same loco normally runs round at the reversal point.  Over many years it has been normal practice to have the seated accommodation at the Penzance end of the train and the sleepers at the London end.  

[Flood]

In 1976 the Western only had 3 Mk1 BFKs but they had 8 Mk2 vacuum braked BFKs. Even though I put Mk1 down as the stock type that was a bit of a generalisation and I would have thought that a vacuum braked Mk2 BFK would have been more likely.

 

The SLE and SLEP sleepers are Mk3 stock. The day coaches would normally be either Mk2D, Mk2E or Mk2F (hated those because they had centre armrests). By 1987 Old Oak Common had pressure vent Mk2 stock for the NSE services and aircon stock for the Inter-City ones. A pressure vent coach could have been used, and up to sectorisation in 1987 they frequently were, but the later in the 1980s you get the less likely it was to occur.

 

Looking at this post (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58896-mk1-sleeper/?p=1101593) it states you make a SLC from an SLF (because of the short roof duct length) but according to this post (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58896-mk1-sleeper/?p=1111190) Bachmann put long ducts on all their blue and grey stock and short ducts on all their maroon ones. I don't know whether this has been corrected yet.

 

Class 47s could be seen regularly on the sleepers from the 1970s onwards. So for 1976 you can have Westerns, 47s, perhaps a 46 and occasionally a 50 (the sleepers were dual heated but Class 50 availability was down to between 50-60% and they needed as many as possible for aircon rakes). For the late 1980s it was a mix of 50s and 47s with 47s becoming more prevalent from 1988 onwards.

[YK 50A]

Looking at this post (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58896-mk1-sleeper/?p=1101593) it states you make a SLC from an SLF (because of the short roof duct length) but according to this post (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58896-mk1-sleeper/?p=1111231) Bachmann put long ducts on all their blue and grey stock and short ducts on all their maroon ones. I don't know whether this has been corrected yet.

 

Just for the record, when I last checked perhaps 6 months ago with Hattons, it hadn't been corrected.  I don't believe there is a subsequent release of the Bachmann SLF or SLSTP so we might be waiting a while.

 

I did refer to this in post number 2 above, but I thought (probably incorrectly - Brian will have got it right) that the SLC had the longer ducting.

 

Alun

[Flood]

Have a look here Alun, https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/sets/72157634441537573/detail/. Quite a few pictures of Mk1 sleepers of all types. You can just about tell that a SLC has the shorter ducts.

[MJI]

A 50 on 15 leaving Plymouth sounded brilliant, it is easy to forget that they were the most capable of the production type 4s.

 

I have not forgotten my set details

[ZiderHead]

That must have been quite a sight (and sound.)

 

In 0 gauge thats well over an 8m train!