GWR double heading head lamp codes

[john dew]

I have searched without success

 

I understand it was GWR practice that ,other than for short distances, the assisting loco was coupled inside or behind the train engine.

 

The train loco continued to carry the appropriate train class code.......my question......what lamps, if any, did the assisting loco carry?

 

I am guessing either nothing or Light engine ....single lamp centre of buffer beam.........but confirmation from those who know would be appreciated

 

Regards from Vancouver

[micknich2003]

The leading engine would have headlamps, the second engine would have no lamps.

[unclebobkt]

 

I understand it was GWR practice that ,other than for short distances, the assisting loco was coupled inside or behind the train engine.

  ... .

I am guessing either nothing or Light engine ....single lamp centre of buffer beam.........but confirmation from those who know would be appreciated

 

 

      Following on from the above posting some further questions -

 

>. If a banking engine was employed to assist in uphill working would it be coupled & piped to the main train or not?

>>. If 'YES.'  then I presume that its code would be 'Light engine.' until the actual connections were made, after wch. the front lamp would be removed but not the back/RED one?

>>. If 'NO.'  then I presume that it would continue to shew its 'Light engine.' classification as its lamps couldn't be removed safely whilst that loco. was in motion?

[LMS2968]

Practice with assisting from the rear varied: some situations called for the banker to be attached; others didn't. If coupled on, the banker would not carry lamps next to the train - they would be removed on coupling up - and the train itself would not carry a tail lamp other than on the assisting engine, this too being removed at the same time. On stopping to uncouple, lamps would be restored to both train and banker.

 

Often (usually?) the banker would not couple to the train, so it could simply 'drop off' at the summit. In this case, the train and banker would continue to carry lamps at both ends. In such a case, the train would be offered forward from box to box by a special code so that the bobby in the box in advance was aware that there was also a banker, and would not give Train Out just because the banked train had gone. Usually, he would need to be able to see the bank engine after it had dropped off to allow this method of working.

[corneliuslundie]

I suspect that banking with the loco not attached was also only permitted where specifically allowed in the WTT or appendix, in which case there may have been specific instructions in that document, but this probably varied from company to company.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that banking with the loco not attached was also only permitted where specifically allowed in the WTT or appendix, in which case there may have been specific instructions in that document, but this probably varied from company to company.

Assisting in the rear was (is - if still needed anywhere?) only permitted where specially authorised and that authority would stipulate whether or not any assistant engine(s) was (were) to be coupled or allowed to assist without being attached.  Generally assisting unattached normally only seems to have been permitted - and then not in every instance - where the gradient was continuously rising and normally when assisting passenger trains the assistant engine was always required to be coupled.

 

The only exceptions to the restrictions on assistance were when assistance was provided in an emergency due to a train failure etc - in which case the assistant engine would always be coupled to the disabled train.

[Grovenor]

Still banking on the Lickey in 2007, and I have not heard that the grade has reduced or locos got any stronger since then.

Keith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R0CJOjdWLs

[unclebobkt]

      In previous times of being steam-hauled have there been any cases of 'Double heading.', to better assist in braking if needed - when descending a particularly steep incline;  or was the train stopped at the summit so that the Guard could pin-down manually the goods wagons brakes?

     

[jonny777]

Still banking on the Lickey in 2007, and I have not heard that the grade has reduced or locos got any stronger since then.

Keith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R0CJOjdWLs

 

 

An excellent video. 2000 tons taken up a 1 in 37.7 at 30mph would have been unthinkable in steam days, I suspect. But these diesel jobbies make it all look so easy.    

[jonny777]

Practice with assisting from the rear varied: some situations called for the banker to be attached; others didn't. If coupled on, the banker would not carry lamps next to the train - they would be removed on coupling up - and the train itself would not carry a tail lamp other than on the assisting engine, this too being removed at the same time. On stopping to uncouple, lamps would be restored to both train and banker.

 

Often (usually?) the banker would not couple to the train, so it could simply 'drop off' at the summit. In this case, the train and banker would continue to carry lamps at both ends. In such a case, the train would be offered forward from box to box by a special code so that the bobby in the box in advance was aware that there was also a banker, and would not give Train Out just because the banked train had gone. Usually, he would need to be able to see the bank engine after it had dropped off to allow this method of working.

 

 

Watching a few Lickey banking videos, the bankers have one lamp right hand side both front and back and these can be seen in place on the videos taken from the east side of the line while locos are banking and returning light engine.

 

I have never seen a Lickey video where the banking locos are attached to a passenger train, or indeed to each other. The banking locos in those days would drop off the back of the train one at a time, in a staggered fashion in order to minimise the sudden loss of power at the back of the train when over the summit.

 

Although the various commentaries do not mention it, I presume that if a goods train had required a couple of panniers and the 9F (I think the Fawley - Bromford Bridge oil train had 3 panniers and the 9F) they would couple up for the descent?

[LMS2968]

To the best of my knowledge, the bankers always returned to Bromsgrove without being part of a descending train; they returned independently, buffered up but not coupled to each other. Descending unfitted goods depended on the wagon handbrakes, the loco and van handbrakes and, if things started to go awry, the engine steam brake too. I think the Rule on Lickey was every other brake lever to be pinned down, those in between to be merely dropped. At the bottom, the goods would be run into a loop to allow the levers to be lifted again.

 

To the best of my knowledge, nowhere was an assiting engine provided on a down grade to assist with braking; where the loco and van brakes were insufficient, the extra brake force was provided by  pinning down wagon brakes.

[The Stationmaster]

To the best of my knowledge, the bankers always returned to Bromsgrove without being part of a descending train; they returned independently, buffered up but not coupled to each other. Descending unfitted goods depended on the wagon handbrakes, the loco and van handbrakes and, if things started to go awry, the engine steam brake too. I think the Rule on Lickey was every other brake lever to be pinned down, those in between to be merely dropped. At the bottom, the goods would be run into a loop to allow the levers to be lifted again.

 

To the best of my knowledge, nowhere was an assiting engine provided on a down grade to assist with braking; where the loco and van brakes were insufficient, the extra brake force was provided by  pinning down wagon brakes.

The 1967  (i.e diesel age, and under WR ownership of course) Instructions differ somewhat from the above.

 

Descending assistant engines (i.e. 'bankers') were required to be coupled to each other and if necessary due to brake faults and thus reduced brake power an assistant engine could be attached to descending passenger trains or trains composed of coaching stock.  I don't know what any earlier Instructions might have said or not said.