Silver Conductive Paint and Dead Frog Points

[YK 50A]

Hi all,

 

After giving up on my own 4mm aspirations, I have been building a train set for my son.  It has essentially been working for a few months, but I have finally got round to investing in a decent DCC controller, finishing the wiring (as opposed to a temporary arrangement) and motorising the points.  I used dead frog setrack points to get more into a limited space - we're talking a roundy round.  I separated what I might want from what makes my son happy.  I've leant that setrack is no easier to use than streamline and live frogs, but that's another story!

 

There's insulated rail joiners on all the frog rails and droppers on the tracks beyond them, and am wondering if anyone has painted the frogs with silver conductive paint?  I have read plenty of reference to it in theory, but only one person that has done it.  I am aware that abrasive cleaners might cause the paint to rub off (which could be periodically touched up) and I know I will be relying on the built in point switching - but it's never caused me an issue.

 

I'd be interested to hear anyone's experience and what brand(s) of conductive paint were used.

 

Here's hoping!

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - Must engage brain before writing ***

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Alun

 

I wonder whether you could use kitchen foil?

 

Ray

[sub39h]

If you've used insulfrog points, why did you use insulated rail joiners as well? Also are you using Peco or Hornby set track points? Peco set track points only have a tiny bit of plastic on them compared with Peco so should have better running and look better as well. 

[Dagworth]

, but I could always use Hornby point clips if there's a problem later.

If you paint the frogs with conductive paint then adding the point clips will create a permanent short

 

Andi

[YK 50A]

I wonder whether you could use kitchen foil?

 

Hi Ray,

 

I was thinking that a layer of conductive paint on the frog will make it live while allowing the stock to travel over it.  I have heard about people using self-adhesive copper strip too.

 

If you've used insulfrog points, why did you use insulated rail joiners as well? Also are you using Peco or Hornby set track points? Peco set track points only have a tiny bit of plastic on them compared with Peco so should have better running and look better as well. 

 

There's a mixture of Hornby and Peco (bought as a couple of job lots) and I am aware that the Peco frogs are much smaller.  The smaller insulated area also makes Peco points much more liable to shorts, particularly with older coarse scale wheels and rigid long wheelbase locomotives (steam).  Hornby points aren't immune to shorts either.  There's been plenty of chatter on the subject, on here and elsewhere.  Believe me, I've tried, hence the insulated joiners.

 

If you paint the frogs with conductive paint then adding the point clips will create a permanent short

 

Thanks Andi, I would have worked that out in the end (I think).   I thought through the process of clipping the wires, bonding the rails and adding polarity switches with Peco live frog points and of course the Hornby clips won't work.  I'll amend my opening post.

 

So, anyone tried conductive paint on dead frogs? 

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - I didn't respond properly to Dagworth ***

[AndyID]

A couple of thoughts:

 

Perhaps you could just add more pickups on his motive power and avoid the problem altogether?

 

If you do make the frogs conductive, won't you have to add a switch to change the polarity with the points direction setting?

 

Perhaps his motive power just needs its wheels cleaned or its pickups adjusted?

[YK 50A]

A couple of thoughts:

 

Perhaps you could just add more pickups on his motive power and avoid the problem altogether?

 

If you do make the frogs conductive, won't you have to add a switch to change the polarity with the points direction setting?

 

Perhaps his motive power just needs its wheels cleaned or its pickups adjusted?

 

Thanks Andy, but my question is about conductive paint.  While my knowledge is poor compared to many on here, I'm not without experience.  I know to keep the wheels and track clean and how many pickups can you add to an 0-4-0 with 4 pickups?  The problem is not with long wheelbase locomotives.  I really don't want to go back to the beginning with what is a children's toy, if I was to, I would use Peco short radius live frog points.  Regarding polarity, the switch rails should change that, not for the purists I know and not what I did with live frog points.

 

So, anyone actually used conductive paint on the frogs?

 

*** EDIT - Andi and Andy are not the same ***

[AndyID]

Thanks again Andi and by the way, I thought through the process of clipping the wires, bonding the rails and adding polarity switches with Peco live frog points and of course the Hornby clips won't work.  I'll amend my opening post.

 

But my question is about conductive paint.  While my knowledge is poor compared to many on here, I'm not without experience.  I know to keep the wheels and track clean and how many pickups can you add to an 0-4-0 with 4 pickups?  The problem is not with long wheelbase locomotives.  I really don't want to go back to the beginning with what is a children's toy, if I was I would use Peco short radius live frog points.

 

So, anyone actually used conductive paint on the frogs?

Ah! An 0-4-0. That explains it.

 

Sorry, no experience with conductive paint, but I don't know why it would not work, subject to the limitations you have already identified yourself.

 

Maybe you should just try it. If it works (or even if if does not) let us know.

[YK 50A]

Ah! An 0-4-0. That explains it.

 

Sorry, no experience with conductive paint, but I don't know why it would not work, subject to the limitations you have already identified yourself.

 

Maybe you should just try it. If it works (or even if if does not) let us know.

 

I might just do that.  A tenner buys me enough conductive paint from Maplin, plenty of alternatives elsewhere on t'internet.  I was hoping I might hear from someone who has tried.  I will certainly update the thread.

 

Alun

[Izzy]

 

I don't know about anyone else, but my limited experience of conductive paint is - don't bother. I tried it many years ago with plastic centered wheels when trying to produce split axle current collection on bogie/tender wheels by coating the back of the wheels from the rim to axle, and it just couldn't carry the current. There has to be a very high silver content for the paint to work, and this often isn't the case.

 

As you are using DCC I would suggest that perhaps fittng a stay-alive/keep-alive decoder into the 0-4-0 might be a better solution, if the space in it is available. I haven't used any yet - since I am 2mm scale modelling and it's more of a challenge - but it seems the TCS ones are quite highly regarded and fairly easy to fit.

 

Izzy

[Suzie]

It really works well. I have only done it on 'N' gauge (using the Hornby conductive paint used to code zero 1 modules which is probably not that easy to get hold of today and an alternative will have to be sourced). In practice it will survive a couple of gentle cleanings before having to be repainted, and in practice the frogs do not have to be cleaned other than when required so do last a long time. You only need a tiny amount on each frog so a small bottle lasts a long while.

 

It improved the running over the 'N' gauge points to be as good as the live frog points when the frog rails were bonded together and connected to the frog switch. If set track is your only option due to space constraints then this is by far the best method to get good running and should be just as effective in larger scales.

[traction]

Hi Suzie, how did you bond the frog rails together?

 

I'm using setrack N-gauge peco insulfrog points and was going to do this to see if it improved running.

I see that there is wire soldered to the base of the point at the frogs, so I take it I can use this to solder a length of wire to and use the other end to connect to the frog switch, or have I got it wrong?

 

Thanks

 

Ian

[Suzie]

The points had already been laid by someone else so I did not get to see the underside - I just soldered wires to the rails beyond the frog as a retro-fit. If you have not laid the point it should be possible to attach a wire to the underside of the point bonding the crossing links under the frog area together at the same time for a neater finish.

[traction]

Thanks!

 

Will have a go at that, how much of the frog did you paint?

 

I need to scan a photo in of a point so I can highlight what exactly needs painting.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Suzie]

You need to paint any plastic bit that the wheel tread will run on which is right from where the switch rails change to plastic until the metal frog rails start and the bit of plastic between the frog rails. On 'N' gauge I probably painted a bit more than was required because of it being a bit fiddly to do it nicely with my level of skill, but with code 100 00 it should be a bit easier to make a neat job - but since it is all connected together you cannot paint too much.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Alun

 

Sun's out and I am supposed to be digging.  Could you replace the plastic 'V' with a couple of pieces of n/s rail - obviously filed and soldered to fit?

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

So, anyone actually used conductive paint on the frogs?

 

 

 

 

Yes about 20 odd years ago with Maplins conductive paint.  From memory this was not to do what you are doing but to keep a dead frog but extend the conductive area on a long plastic frog on a Peco diamond crossing.  Worked well and improved the running through the diamond immeasurably.

[YK 50A]

It really works well. I have only done it on 'N' gauge (using the Hornby conductive paint used to code zero 1 modules which is probably not that easy to get hold of today and an alternative will have to be sourced)...

 

...If set track is your only option due to space constraints then this is by far the best method to get good running and should be just as effective in larger scales.

 

Thanks Suzie, I've read some of your posts on the subject, although I didn't realise you had actually attempted it.  I can't find any Hornby paint, but as I wrote, there's plenty of alternative suppliers.

 

You need to paint any plastic bit that the wheel tread will run on which is right from where the switch rails change to plastic until the metal frog rails start and the bit of plastic between the frog rails...

 

The points are already laid so I'm not intending to bond the switch rails to the stock rails.  I've never had a problem with switch rails changing the polarity - apart from with live frog points and I wouldn't have noticed either way as I did all the mods.  In which case, I believe I would also make live the small insulated area between the moving switch rails and the metal rails leading to the frog - the equivalent of the area where you snip the wires on a Peco live frog point.

 

Hi Alun

 

Sun's out and I am supposed to be digging.  Could you replace the plastic 'V' with a couple of pieces of n/s rail - obviously filed and soldered to fit?

 

Regards

 

Ray

 

Hi Ray,

 

The sun is indeed out!  A picnic at the Yorkshire Air Museum today and now catching up.

 

I have read about this method too, but it's a lot of work.  For example, I saw something by C J Freezer in Railway Modeller from decades ago.  To be honest, I would rather pull up the track, buy 11 short radius live frog points and do it properly.  But it would mean a redesign, which is exactly what I am trying to avoid.  There isn't a live frog equivalent of a setrack curved point for example.

 

Yes about 20 odd years ago with Maplins conductive paint.  From memory this was not to do what you are doing but to keep a dead frog but extend the conductive area on a long plastic frog on a Peco diamond crossing.  Worked well and improved the running through the diamond immeasurably.

 

Just what I wanted to hear, thank you.  There's a Maplins at the local civilisation and as I wrote above, they sell a small pot for a tenner.  I'll give it a go.  What's the worse that can happen?

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - missed out the words 'live frog' with reference to short radius points ***

[Suzie]

With insulfrog it is probably impractical to isolate the switch rails from the frog and too much like hard work in 'N' gauge so as long as your back to backs are sound you should be OK just connecting the two frog rails together with a wire link rather than relying completely on the paint.

[YK 50A]

With insulfrog it is probably impractical to isolate the switch rails from the frog and too much like hard work in 'N' gauge so as long as your back to backs are sound you should be OK just connecting the two frog rails together with a wire link rather than relying completely on the paint.

 

Got you and that makes sense!  Purely for the aesthetics, I think I will try and do without linking the frog rails in the first instance.  Incidentally, I've had a look at some OO Gauge Hornby and Peco points I have in my odds and ends box and I think isolating the switch rails is possible (in OO), but probably/possibly unnecessary.  It might take me a couple of weeks to get round to trying conductive paint, but as I wrote, I will update the thread when I have.

 

Alun