cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Following-on from the discussions elsewhere in the forum on the latest Hornby HST power car releases, may I ask for a clarification on the question of Eastern Region formations in the period of the original livery, please? Archived threads here suggest that Western Region sets had 7 trailer cars, with one TS being replaced by a TGS in the latter years of the period, but it was mentioned in passing that ER sets had 8 trailer cars. My question is: did these sets contain TGS vehicles initially, or were they a later addition (presumably replacing a fifth TS)? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 If my brain cells are working correctly, my memory tells me that none of the initial production of HSTs both ER and WR, had TGS coaches. They came a few years later (early 80s?). I would have to dig out a coaching stock book to be more accurate with dates and formations, but I am sure someone else will be much quicker than I will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The TGS was a later coach design to deal with the fact that the guards' compartments on the power cars were uninhabitable. At least one variation of the ER formation had two catering cars (2xTS, catering, 2xTS, catering, 2xTF). I will leave it to others to provide more details as I find the Mk3 catering cars a bit of a minefield. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 If my brain cells are working correctly, my memory tells me that none of the initial production of HSTs both ER and WR, had TGS coaches. They came a few years later (early 80s?). I would have to dig out a coaching stock book to be more accurate with dates and formations, but I am sure someone else will be much quicker than I will. Thanks Jonny - that's my assumption, but I'm trying to establish it as fact! Having bought the grey/blue power cars (with the incorrect bodyside lettering and lack of nose valance set numbers as discussed at length in the relevant Hornby thread ), I'm going to check through my HST trailer cars this evening - I'm intending to visit the Norwich exhibition tomorrow, and, if it turns-out that I need a TGS, I can check the trade stalls for one then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 My Winter 1980 Platform 5 book shows the HST formations for the WR and ECML without TGS vehicles. There is a note to say that a Trailer Guards Second is being introdced in 1980 and sets will be altered accordingly. The ER sets were shown in the book as class 254 and were all 2 + 8, the first 20 sets 254001 - 254020 had 2 x TFs, 1 x TRUK 1 x TRSB and 4 x TS, - edit -, marshalled in the order as Adrian shows above the sets 254021 - 254032 had 2 x TF, 1 x TRUB, and 5 x TS, cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 The TGS was a later coach design to deal witht he fact that the guards' compartments on the power cars were uninhabitable. At least one variation of the ER formation had two catering cars (2xTS, catering, 2xTS, catering, 2xTF). I will leave it to others to provide more details as I find the Mk3 catering cars a bit of a minefield. Adrian So the TGS would have been introduced on the ECML at roughly the same time as on the GWML? Interesting information regarding the use of two catering vehicles - thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 My Winter 1980 Platform 5 book shows the HST formations for the WR and ECML without TGS vehicles. There is a note to say that a Trailer Guards Second is being introdced in 1980 and sets will be altered accordingly. The ER sets were shown in the book as class 254 and were all 2 + 8, the first 20 sets 254001 - 254020 had 2 x TFs, 1 x TRUK 1 x TRSB and 4 x TS the sets 254021 - 254032 had 2 x TF, 1 x TRUB, and 5 x TS, cheers Cheers - now, that means I don't need a TGS, but I do need a second catering car. Which variant does the Hornby model depict, and can the other version (or both, as the case may be) be modelled? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Yes the formation on many ER sets was TF TF TRUK (with the seating towards second class) TS TS TRSB (with the seating facing towards the centre of the train) TS TS Hope that makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Yes the formation on many ER sets was TF TF TRUK (with the seating towards second class) TS TS TRSB (with the seating facing towards the centre of the train) TS TS Hope that makes sense. Is it possible to model either the TRUK and/or TRSB using the Hornby model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I'm not at home at the moment but I think the TGS stock was delivered from about April 1980. Hornby make a TRUB. The latest four window buffet is meant to be a TRSB but is actually a loco hauled RFM from the mid 1980s. Combining a TRUB with an RFM would produce a TRSB, the TRUK would need a bit more work than the TRSB. Obviously cutting and shutting Hornby Mk3 HST coaches is not for the faint hearted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 I'm not at home at the moment but I think the TGS stock was delivered from about April 1980. Hornby make a TRUB. The latest four window buffet is meant to be a TRSB but is actually a loco hauled RFM from the mid 1980s. Combining a TRUB with an RFM would produce a TRSB, the TRUK would need a bit more work than the TRSB. Obviously cutting and shutting Hornby Mk3 HST coaches is not for the faint hearted. Thanks - I don't think I'm up to cutting and shutting! I'm wondering whether getting either the TRUB or TRSB/RFM (whichever is the one I haven't already got) and using them instead might be my best compromise? Almost a tribute to a certain Mr. Morecambe; "I'm not using all the right coaches, but I am using them in the right order." Alternatively, would two TRUBs be a closer fit to the orignal? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 It is mainly the kitchen windows that are different between the RFM, TRSB and TRUK. By making the Hornby "TRSB" coach have 'Buffet-Bar 125' on the side it would pass as a reasonable TRSB, certainly on the non kitchen side. I'm trying to remember what the TRUK stock had, 'Kitchen 125' I think. The narrow windows on the non kitchen side were opaque, unlike the TRUB and TRSB. I can't remember whether the TRUK had a full length red stripe or was blue/red like the others. So by changing the writing on the side and painting over a few windows should produce a reasonable compromise I would think. Have a look on Dennis Taylor's "80s Rail" site. It has lots of TRSB photos and I think some TRUK. I can't check it at the moment as the computer at work won't let me! Edit: You'll need the coach with four passenger windows for both the TRSB and the TRUK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Did Hornby ever release the 4-window buffet in Blue/Grey? I know I had one on order when it was first announced, but I thought that variant was cancelled. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I thought that brass sides were available for various Mk3 modifications, but I can't remember the name of the site where I saw them. EDIT: to say I found it - http://www.shop.hurstmodels.com/mk-3-etched-brass-overlays-37-c.asp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Did Hornby ever release the 4-window buffet in Blue/Grey? I know I had one on order when it was first announced, but I thought that variant was cancelled. Adrian It was released about a month/2 months ago. I thought that brass sides were available for various Mk3 modifications, but I can't remember the name of the site where I saw them. Hurst Models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 It is mainly the kitchen windows that are different between the RFM, TRSB and TRUK. By making the Hornby "TRSB" coach have 'Buffet-Bar 125' on the side it would pass as a reasonable TRSB, certainly on the non kitchen side. I'm trying to remember what the TRUK stock had, 'Kitchen 125' I think. The narrow windows on the non kitchen side were opaque, unlike the TRUB and TRSB. I can't remember whether the TRUK had a full length red stripe or was blue/red like the others. So by changing the writing on the side and painting over a few windows should produce a reasonable compromise I would think. Have a look on Dennis Taylor's "80s Rail" site. It has lots of TRSB photos and I think some TRUK. I can't check it at the moment as the computer at work won't let me! Edit: You'll need the coach with four passenger windows for both the TRSB and the TRUK. So two "TRSBs", one re-labelled, and the other with some windows painted from the inside would do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 I thought that brass sides were available for various Mk3 modifications, but I can't remember the name of the site where I saw them. EDIT: to say I found it - http://www.shop.hurstmodels.com/mk-3-etched-brass-overlays-37-c.asp Brilliant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 So two "TRSBs", one re-labelled, and the other with some windows painted from the inside would do? The windows are tinted so they may have to be painted on the outside and then gloss varnished. They wouldn't be totally accurate but 95% of modellers, let alone anyone else, would never know. If you are ok with new brass sides then that's even better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 The windows are tinted so they may have to be painted on the outside and then gloss varnished. They wouldn't be totally accurate but 95% of modellers, let alone anyone else, would never know. If you are ok with new brass sides then that's even better. How much work are the brass sides compared to cutting and shutting, would you say? Apologies for the continual questions - I'm on a steep learning curve here! By the way - the photo of the TRUK on the 80's rail site you linked to shows that it had "Restaurant 125" on the side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 When did sets stop running with 2x catering vehicles? Did they last long enough for TGSs to run as part of those sets and gain IC exec livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 When did sets stop running with 2x catering vehicles? Did they last long enough for TGSs to run as part of those sets and gain IC exec livery? Can't help you with the specifics of that question, but it appears that the TGS vehicles were added a few years before Executive livery appeared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 10, 2015 From early 80s the two dining vehicles were put together, with seated areas adjoining. As mentioned earlier you could always go for a single TRUB, with I think an extra TSO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 From early 80s the two dining vehicles were put together, with seated areas adjoining. As mentioned earlier you could always go for a single TRUB, with I think an extra TSO Correct for the Eastern Region? Rivercider states that his guide from 1980 shows the two catering vehicles (neither of which was a TRUB) being separated by two TSs. As I have a TGS already, I'm thinking of modelling the HST from 1981-82, with something like the following, compressed formation (insufficient room on home layout for the full set): PC-TF-TRUK*-TS-TRSB*-TS-TGS-PC * These vehicles would be lightly-modified Hornby "TRSB" vehicles, which I'm told are actually loco-hauled RFMs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 10, 2015 You'd have to check dated photos, but certainly from at least '83, the dining cars were put together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpbell Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 You'd have to check dated photos, but certainly from at least '83, the dining cars were put together Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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