Prototype Goods Station for L&Y Pugs?

[TheGingerTrainspotter]

Hi all, 

 

    Recently got hold of the ubiquitous Hornby L&Y class 21. Love the loco and will be fitting a high level chassis soon. I've decided I want to try and give the little pug a home in the form of a micro layout (about 2' x 4' would be ideal) and I'm looking for a prototype location to model. I know this class got around a bit and I'm trying to find some track plans available online showing the areas these little tankies worked in. Ideally I'd like to find something that could realistically accommodate a large variety of wagons, along with some chain shunting and an interesting track plan. Something either on a dockside, or more interestingly, inside a large goods station/yard would be ideal. I know these engines worked both Park Lane Goods Station in Liverpool and Bristol docks. Anyone have any ideas for a location that fits what I want, and if so, is there a track plan available online?

[Arthur]

 

They worked the low level goods depot at Irwell Street, Manchester. This location has featured in both British Railways Illustrated and Bylines magazines, though I couldn't say which issues.

 

Urban setting, ungated street crossings, wharfage on the River Irwell, dirty brick warehouses and the LNWR line running west from Manchester Exchange carried on a brick viaduct as a backdrop. A line from the sidings ran under this viaduct and climbed a steep incline to join the L&Y lines running from Manchester Victoria to Bolton and Preston. There was also a continuous pilot coaling stage to allow the locos to carry on working without having to return to their home shed at Agecroft.

[TheGingerTrainspotter]

do you know of any pictures or maps of this goods depot online, sounds pefect for a model

[clecklewyke]

There are some excellent photos and a good plan in an old issue of British Railways Illustrated which is currently languishing in an unopened box in my railway room following a house move. I'm afraid it's inaccessible for nor now but if you haven't found a copy in a couple of months give me a shout and if it's been found I'll scan it for you. I've searched through Irwell Press' Brill index and failed to find it but I'm sure it's there somewhere.

 

It's a prototype which has inspired me ever since I first saw it in the 1960s - a highlight of trans Pennine journeys in the 1960s.

 

I'm about to build a High Levels chassis for the Pug for Royston Vasey so I'll follow your thread with interest.

 

Ian

[Arthur]

Sorry, can't help with anything on line. There's not that there's much at all, though it was a very extensive facility, like many urban goods yards, it didn't attract many photographers. There are some photos scattered around various publications that I've seen over the years.

 

This isn't great but....

 

 

The above shows the east end of the sidings, actually New Bailey Goods Depot. North is top, River Irwell running east to west with a large river side warehouse between it and the sidings. Salford station is shown at the top, the lines from Manchesters Victoria and Exchange come in from the right, and just off shot to the left, the L&Y lines head north west towards Bolton with the LNWR lines continuing west towards Liverpool.

 

There was an ungated crossing on Irwell Street, just off shot left, serving New Bailey goods depot on the east side. The tight curves within this depot mandated the use of short wheelbase Locos like the Pugs. The depot stood on the site of a former prison hence the 'New Bailey' name.

 

Overall, it was a large facility, though it would provide some ideas for a small model.

[Andy Kirkham]

Avonside Wharf in Bristol used to be shunted by Pugs https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10420980723/in/set-72157636831122263.

 

Indeed, a street that has been built across the site is named Pugs Lane (I would have inserted a smiley at this point but there are so many of the darn things that I can't find one depicting a straightforward smile)

 

The location has already inspired a layout http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82744-peafore-yard-37114s-new-4mm-br-blue-layout/, which I believe was exhibited at Cheltenham at the weekend.

[Andy Kirkham]

It might also be worth looking at this thread from 2010 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/21740-ly-pugs/

[clecklewyke]

Has anyone mentioned Goole Docks? They were the Eastern-most outpost of the L&Y and they had lots of Pugs. The older docks such as Goole, Avonside Wharf, Leith and Humber Dock are great subjects, with very tight curves, inset track and lines disappearing behind lovely old warehouses, pubs etc.

 

Ian

[Fat Controller]

One, 51218, even made it to Swansea Docks, where it replaced some even more ancient locos. It travelled from Horwich on its own wheels, via what is now the 'Heart of Wales' line. There should be some shots of the sort of places it worked on the thread about modelling Swansea Eastern Depot by Steve Fay.

[br2975]

One, 51218, even made it to Swansea Docks, where it replaced some even more ancient locos. It travelled from Horwich on its own wheels, via what is now the 'Heart of Wales' line. There should be some shots of the sort of places it worked on the thread about modelling Swansea Eastern Depot by Steve Fay.

 There was an ongoing requirement at Swansea Docks for short wheelbase locos to shunt the Fish Market area close to the present day Industrial / Maritime Museum; 204hp shunters (Cl.03) were too long in the wheelbase for the duty.

.

Initially GWR ex-Cardiff Railway 1338 was drafted in from Bridgewater Docks, to be replaced by an ex MR  Deeley tank and finally the LYR 'pug' mentioned above by Brian.

.

British Railways Illustrated  Vol 1.6 Aug/Sept 1992, p.309 "Irwell Street Goods" is the magazine article you need. It comes with a large fold out plan of the yard and its environs.

 

Brian R

[Andy Kirkham]

One, 51218, even made it to Swansea Docks, where it replaced some even more ancient locos. It travelled from Horwich on its own wheels, via what is now the 'Heart of Wales' line. There should be some shots of the sort of places it worked on the thread about modelling Swansea Eastern Depot by Steve Fay.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/13411709923/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/14019282233/

 

See also "The Red Dragon and Other Old Friends" a most wonderful book of black and white pictures of the Swansea region in the 50s and 60s. Do you have it Brian?

[Fat Controller]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/13411709923/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/14019282233/

 

See also "The Red Dragon and Other Old Friends" a most wonderful book of black and white pictures of the Swansea region in the 50s and 60s. Do you have it Brian?

Oh, yes!!!

I just remember going to Swansea in the very late 1950s and seeing steam engines running alongside (and sometimes along) cobbled streets in the area below High Street. The area still hadn't been rebuilt after the 'Three Night Blitz' of February 1941- this link will give some idea of the state of things:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=swansea+blitz+1941&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=RessVbeeF4_havuKgYgJ&ved=0CCcQsAQ

[TheGingerTrainspotter]

Irwell Street sounds extremely intriguing. I'd love to try and find a track plan but I'm having no luck online, and living in the states tends to make books and other physical references hard to come by. Are there any websites with older maps of the area where I could see the track arrangements?

[bennyboy]

Have you tried this site, although you may need a subscription to see the scale of maps that you need.

 

https://www.old-maps.co.uk

[Ian Smeeton]

The Britain from above site doesn't have much, but this photo shows part of the Goods Depot. 

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/eaw030346

 

To zoom in you have to register, but as it is free, I can lose many hours on here.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Arthur]

 

Good idea bennyboy,

 

Search Salford and the maps for 1954 and 1956 show it. As bennyboy say's, the resolution isn't great unless you subscribe though you can just make out the track layout. The whole complex, largely south of the LNW line with more in the V formed by the LNW/L&Y junction, is enormous.

 

The whole area was riddled with railways, river/canal and warehousing including Liverpool Road Goods Depot, built in 1830 as the original terminus for the Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[JeffP]

The Liverpool docks had Pugs too, quite a few based at Bank Hall.

 

And there were some at Bristol Barrow Road, and even Gloucester, I believe?

[Andy Kirkham]

Have you tried this site, although you may need a subscription to see the scale of maps that you need.

 

https://www.old-maps.co.uk

The National Library of Scotland has a fine selection of Ordnance Survey maps online, and not just of Scotland. http://maps.nls.uk/series/index.html

 

I think there is complete coverage of Great Britain at 6inch to the mile, and this means of accessing it (seamlessly overlaid on Google Maps) is especially impressive http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=8&lat=53.7615&lon=-1.7074&layers=171

[clecklewyke]

The National Library of Scotland has a fine selection of Ordnance Survey maps online, and not just of Scotland. http://maps.nls.uk/series/index.html

 

I think there is complete coverage of Great Britain as 6inch to the mile, and this means of accessing it (seamlessly overlaid on Google Maps) is especially impressive http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=8&lat=53.7615&lon=-1.7074&layers=171

 

Thanks for that, Andy.

 

The Salford goods depot we are discussing is at 53 28 43N 2 15 16 W

 

It does not appear to show the line crossing the street (New Bailey Street?) but note the sharp curves at the east end of the yard - the tracks at right angles were connected by wagon turntables.

 

It was all below the level of the passenger station, from which you got a panoramic view. Even a small part of it would make a lovely diorama. (Watch this space - in a few years' time...)

 

Ian

[Arthur]

 

My error Ian, the ungated crossing is one street left (west) crossing Irwell Street and serving New Bailey yard. I spotted this error yesterday and amended my original post accordingly.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Ginger,

 

I think you will struggle to get a real yard that will meet what appears to be your requirements.

 

However, leaving the 'Real Railway' behind and looking at other modelling efforts does open up a few ideas......

 

For openers:- Hepton Wharf

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Hepton+Wharf

 

Loads of good ideas that, I feel, were not fully exploited.

 

Have a look and I'll see if I can keep feeding ideas to the thread.

 

Thanks

[Jim Martin]

The article on Irwell Street goods station was in British Railways Illustrated, vol. 1 no. 6 (August/September 1992). It's ten pages long with plenty of photos and one of the huge fold-out plans that used to be such a feature of BRILL (and may still be: I haven't bought it for ages). As a sample - and I hope that this is okay from a copyright perspective - here are a couple of images (note that North is at the BOTTOM of the plan as printed; New Bailey Street - shown in Arthur's image above - is at the extreme left of the plan in the magazine):





A similar subject written up in a very different way is in an early issue of the Railway Magazine, under the title "A Modern Railway Goods Station in Manchester" (in a particularly genius move, I've failed to note what volume this was from, but it was on pages 8-18 of whatever year it was from, which was clearly before 1923 and almost certainly before 1914), which covers Oldham Road goods station:




You could also try the Godfrey series of Ordnance Survey reprints. I have most of those covering Liverpool and the L&Y had several depots up and down the docks.

Jim