Peco code 75 vs. build it yourself bullhead - cost?

[richardswain]

After designing a layout for several years I've now decided to get on and build some of it (in OO, code 75). But.. building a main line though the peak district in the 1930's would in reality involve using bullhead rail. And building with bh rail would also mean building all my own turnouts.

 

There are pros and cons:

Pros: more realistic track (?) with all of the "flowing trackwork" advantages, can build exactly what I need, especially turnouts on a curve.

 

Cons: I've never tried to build a turnout, and I have up to 50 to do, I live in Denmark where there is (to my knowledge) no tradition of building track, so no local help available.

 

But one of my main problems is price - with a young family I've not got unlimited cash to throw at my hobby, and I am finding it very hard to assess whether it is more or less expensive to build turnouts yourself. It seems that buying bullhead flexitrack is roughly twice as expensive as peco, and the point kits on sale seem horrendously expensive (C+L's anyway).

 

So: Is there really such a noticable difference between Peco's code 75 and bullhead code 75, if I'm definitely building in OO. I'd be grateful for any opinions!

[Tase]

 

So: Is there really such a noticable difference between Peco's code 75 and bullhead code 75, if I'm definitely building in OO. I'd be grateful for any opinions!

Peco is flatbottom and not bullhead so it depends on whether you want it prototypical or can you live with being incorrect?

 

The C&L turnout kits are expensive so buy yourself all the individual components (timbers, rails and chairs if required) and build your own. If you're not too bothered about chairs then solder your rail directly onto copper sleepers.

 

I had the same dilemma a while back when I was planning my layout but in the end I decided that I could not live with, and would always regret not having the best looking prototypical track. So, I'm going down the hand built point route although in doing so it's going to take a good while longer to finish this project!

[SJR]

Hi,

Would certainly recommend building your own turnouts.

 

I have built my own using SMP track components (available from Marcway in Sheffield) using Iain Rices book, A Pragmatic Guide to Building, Wiring and Laying PCB Track.

 

It's inexpensive and it works. I use the C&L paper templates as well as designing my own configurations.

 

It's a very satisfying part of the hobby and the finished product looks heaps better than the commercially available alternate.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

[Andy Reichert]

 

Some very inexpensive DIY turnout building (helper) tools like this may make things easier for you. These are for US HO, but there are code 75/82 versions, so they should work with UK bullhead if you stick to "00".

 

 

For example they fix the gauges at all three ends and fix the crossing angle exactly with refence to the straight route as shown above. More of the gizmos are in the pipeline and they work with both pre-assembled and DIY crossings.

 

Ask or PM me if anyone needs to know more.

 

Andy

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello, if you have never built a point from basic materials, my advice would be to try a simple turnout using copper clad sleepers and code 75 bullhead rail.  You will require a set of gauges, mainly track gauges.  For the check rail and wing rail clearances, I used car feeler gauges in my first attempt.  The main thing is, have a go.  The hardest part is starting off, but as an encouragement, hand built points using copper clad are much cheaper than buying the ready made article.

Derek

[F-UnitMad]

....I'm going down the hand built point route although in doing so it's going to take a good while longer to finish this project!

This aspect needs emphasising - I'm building/spiking my own track in O Scale, & getting the track down is taking far longer than it would using RTR track. For my own project I'm happy with that; this is my "lifetime" layout in my loft that I intend to keep for as long as I can, not a short-term project.

So the time aspect of hand-building track needs taking into account, & with a young & growing family, are you prepared for the possibility of getting bogged down in a big project which might not see trains actually running for some time?? Or might it be better to use some RTR track at first, to get trains running, then use handbuilt track for secondary areas, or parts of the layout that might get focussed on more, such as Engine sheds or Goods Yards.

[hayfield]

Richard

 

Peco track is quite cheap but its an H0 system (3.5 mm scale) apart from the obvious that its flatbottom rail with clips, for 4 mm scale the length and width of the sleepers are wrong and the sleeper spacing is too narrow. One work around is to re space the sleepers

 

As for turnouts and crossings the kits are an expensive way of buying the items, though some parts (common crossing and switch blades) are pre-made

 

Starting off with copperclad construction is sound advice as chaired track is a more difficult to build, however this forum has some of the most helpful and encouraging members who are more than willing to coach from a distance

[richardswain]

Thanks hugely for all the replies so far! As you possibly guessed, I am very tempted by building my own turnouts, otherwise I probably wouldn't have started the topic. I have joined the scalefour society not least because they sell a jig for making the vee (but I don't dare mention on their forum that I'm using OO...), and I am making inroads with Templot, helped by the very active Martin :-).

 

It's a bit daunting right now, but thanks for your opinions and encouragement!

[richardswain]

 

Ask or PM me if anyone needs to know more.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

These look very interesting. How do you use them? Are they for filing the vee or just for aligning? I tried to find them on the website but couldn't see them?

Richard

[kandc_au]

Richard,

I don't have anyone remotely nearby to help me so I bit the bullet and used rail from some N scale I had nearby.

Between what I have learnt on here and practice it is as easy as pie to make them.

First one was about 1 1/2 hours...it worked, but the more you make the easier it is, and the more you understand of it's functioning movements.

 

Khris

 

BTW the n scale track was only for prctising on.

Bought a bulk lot of rail from C&L and chewing through that at a good rate!

[jonhall]

It sounds like you might benefit from a trip to the UK that coincides with ExpoEM or Scalefourum to watch and talk to track building demo'ers or even to attend one of the Missenden Abbey modellers retreats to get the first one built with some 'over the shoulder' support. I suspect building track is a lot easier once you have built the first one.

 

Jon

[hayfield]

It sounds like you might benefit from a trip to the UK that coincides with ExpoEM or Scalefourum to watch and talk to track building demo'ers or even to attend one of the Missenden Abbey modellers retreats to get the first one built with some 'over the shoulder' support. I suspect building track is a lot easier once you have built the first one.

 

Jon

 

Richard

 

Just build one on line, there are plenty on here who will help, with the odd hindrance. There are just a few basic processes to learn, take more time than you need on the first build, and do not rush it to get something running. Just have a go and try to enjoy it

[mightbe]

I had absolutely no reference other than the countless threads and topics online, some of them here and some on other sites. Building your own turnouts is virtually unheard of in the US as well (at least to the standard being considered). But reading threads online was just about all the help I needed to get started. After the first one the process is fairly pain-free. 

 

That was PCB construction--I don't have any experience building chaired turnouts (yet!), but I assume the process just requires more planning-ahead. I highly recommend reading the Eastwood Town topic by Gordon S and any posts Brian H has made (on building V's especially--he has a very simple method that works well).

[trisonic]

Building your own turnouts is virtually unheard of in the US as well (at least to the standard being considered). 

 

 

I dunno where you live in the USA but that statement is not true in New Jersey..........

 

Best, Pete.

[davknigh]

I dunno where you live in the USA but that statement is not true in New Jersey..........

 

Best, Pete.

...or in Canada but that's not why we're here.

 

Building your own is like any other skill, the first one is challenging, the next easier and so on. A book that some may call dated but still useful from my perspective is; An Approach to building Finescale Track by Iain Rice published by Wild Swan and available from http://titfield.co.uk/WildSwan/WSM_TECH.htm. Yes, the track is P4 but the techniques are applicable to all gauges. The various components can be had from a range of dealers and once you have built your own track you'll not go back.

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

Usual disclaimer applies.

   

[mightbe]

I dunno where you live in the USA but that statement is not true in New Jersey..........

 

Best, Pete.

 

Ah, I should have said "heard of or seen in magazines but few actually see it first-hand". I attribute this (mostly) to the extremely different take on shows/exhibitions in the US.

 

However in my experience (in various corners of the Midwest--mostly), handbuilt turnouts are rather uncommon, especially in HO. Outside of O, NG, and finescale modellers they're a rarity. The only major exception I can think of are those who model the complex industrial arrangements of the Northeast.

[richardswain]

It sounds like you might benefit from a trip to the UK that coincides with ExpoEM or Scalefourum to watch and talk to track building demo'ers or even to attend one of the Missenden Abbey modellers retreats to get the first one built with some 'over the shoulder' support. I suspect building track is a lot easier once you have built the first one.

 

Jon

Yes, that'd crossed my mind too. On the other hand, as others have written here, it seems to be possible to build turnouts with the help of people like yourselves. I think I will order some track, sleepers and gauges and see if I can create something functional following the mantra of "ambitious but rubbish", moving towards the "practice makes perfect".

[richardswain]

I highly recommend reading the Eastwood Town topic by Gordon S and any posts Brian H has made (on building V's especially--he has a very simple method that works well).

Thanks for the tips. I have been following Eastwood town for several years after I stumbled across it. Gordon's trackbuilding explanations (brilliant!) were actually what started me wondering if I could build track. If I got anything even vaguely as good I'd be enormously satisfied!

[Andy Reichert]

Hi Andy

These look very interesting. How do you use them? Are they for filing the vee or just for aligning? I tried to find them on the website but couldn't see them?

Richard

 

These are just for aligning the rails at the ends. They don't help make up bent rail frogs. Currently I  haven't made anything to shape the curved central part of a turnout, as they would be considerably longer and "smarter" parts. As these are only a partial tool set, I just pass copies along to interested colleagues for  "beta testing" and they just form the curved rails from printed templates.

 

Andy

[Loxborough]

I build my own stuff and have done for a while now, having started with nothing but Ian Rice's book, this forum and some very good 'phone conversations with the fine people at C&L (under the old regime but Pete ius every bit as helpful) to guide me. Sweated blood on the first few turnouts which trains still lurch over sickeningly, but it really does get easier quite quickly and I can now say that I build stuff that the trains glide over very pleasingly. And it gets cheaper; I started out low on confidence so buying C&L common crossings and switches which made turnouts very dear. With growing confidence though I started filing my own from bullhead track and the cost tumbled.

 

There is another aspect to cost, which revolves around what you want from the hobby. For me it is about sitting and doing something to my own spec in my own time, not about urgently getting to the time of having trains run. I am therefore happy to spend a very long time indeed getting it right, I get great pleasure from that and the cost per hour of pleasurable hobbying time is very much less that it would be if I were to buy Peco track, tack it down and move on.

 

One last (perhaps patronising, sorry if it is) note of advice; do not feel forced by the very high standards here into doing something you are not comfortable doing. I did this, swithching to P4 for a while largely because of (very amicably applied) pressure from people on here, and didn't get on with it at all. Model to your own spec for your own pleasure and the person who counts will certainly be happy with the results. 

 

George

[F-UnitMad]

One last (perhaps patronising, sorry if it is) note of advice; do not feel forced by the very high standards here into doing something you are not comfortable doing. I did this, swithching to P4 for a while largely because of (very amicably applied) pressure from people on here, and didn't get on with it at all. Model to your own spec for your own pleasure and the person who counts will certainly be happy with the results.

 

 

I think that is some of the soundest advice I have seen on RMweb - not patronising at all. Raising one's standard of modelling is a laudable aim, but at the end of the day it'd a hobby and should be a pleasure to engage in - not fraught with frustration or anxiety that one is not meeting perceived (rightly or wrongly) 'expectations' of others.

I was 'encouraged' to go to P48 standards (modelling US O scale) by some. I read comments such as "If you're going to hand-build track, why do it to the wrong gauge?"... but the thing to remember about track standards is that it affects wheels as well, & replacing wheelsets will add to the cost significantly, as well as becoming something else on the "To Do" list, & maybe not a straightforward task either where locomotives involved. That's why I stuck to standard O, 32mm gauge, which is actually too wide for US outline, scaling out at 5ft gauge.

It's a hobby - there's nothing to say one is not allowed to find a Comfort Zone for some aspects, & stay in it!!!

[richardswain]

I think that is some of the soundest advice I have seen on RMweb - not patronising at all. Raising one's standard of modelling is a laudable aim, but at the end of the day it'd a hobby and should be a pleasure to engage in - not fraught with frustration or anxiety that one is not meeting perceived (rightly or wrongly) 'expectations' of others.

I was 'encouraged' to go to P48 standards (modelling US O scale) by some. I read comments such as "If you're going to hand-build track, why do it to the wrong gauge?"... but the thing to remember about track standards is that it affects wheels as well, & replacing wheelsets will add to the cost significantly, as well as becoming something else on the "To Do" list, & maybe not a straightforward task either where locomotives involved. That's why I stuck to standard O, 32mm gauge, which is actually too wide for US outline, scaling out at 5ft gauge.

It's a hobby - there's nothing to say one is not allowed to find a Comfort Zone for some aspects, & stay in it!!!

Having just join the Scalefour society I have been deeply impressed by the members' layouts. They really do look like the real thing i miniature. But I too, despite the beguiling nature of P4, think it is beyond me at present. I have yet to get to the stage of even daring to weather my loco's. Having to regauge them (all steam, most outside cylinder) to P4 is my "bridge too far". At the moment I can't even get at track plan I'm happy with (in the space available). Then there's signalling and so on and so on. If I could build my own OO turnouts I would be enormously satisfied!

[davknigh]

Richard, "the longest journey starts with a single step". We all had to start somewhere and no one expects perfection on the first try   As has been mentioned before, build a test track, convert some wagons and look over some of the articles on the CLAG pages like http://www.ultrascale.com/sites/default/files/reviews/review01.pdfand http://www.clag.org.uk/rewheelingwagons.html

 

HTH,

 

David

[hayfield]

Having just join the Scalefour society I have been deeply impressed by the members' layouts. They really do look like the real thing i miniature. But I too, despite the beguiling nature of P4, think it is beyond me at present. I have yet to get to the stage of even daring to weather my loco's. Having to regauge them (all steam, most outside cylinder) to P4 is my "bridge too far". At the moment I can't even get at track plan I'm happy with (in the space available). Then there's signalling and so on and so on. If I could build my own OO turnouts I would be enormously satisfied!

 

 

Richard

 

Go and buy some rail and copperclad strip along with a roller gauge and have a go. I have suggested the copperclad method as its cheaper to build than chaired turnouts, the construction is far simpler and a lot easier to adjust. A while ago I put together a set of parts for an A5 copperclad turnout ( I built the vee and made the wing and switch rails) and offered it at the cost price of the parts + postage, Martin Wynn was also happy for me to include a plan (at no charge) made from Templot. No takers.  Happy to do the same if you want a go, you just need a roller gauge.

 

John

[richardswain]

Richard, "the longest journey starts with a single step". We all had to start somewhere and no one expects perfection on the first try   As has been mentioned before, build a test track, convert some wagons and look over some of the articles on the CLAG pages like http://www.ultrascale.com/sites/default/files/reviews/review01.pdfand http://www.clag.org.uk/rewheelingwagons.html

 

HTH,

 

David

Thanks David. The thing that really worries me is the loco conversions. For the rest of the rolling stock it's (I am assuming) really just a case of popping out the OO wheels and inserting the P4 ones. But the loco conversions seem a lot  more complicated, and I think I'd end up with a load of bent bits of valve gear and coupling rods as I do it wrong. So I won't be going down the p4 route. I might live to regret that decision, but then the reverse might be true as well.