Blue Spot Fish Vans in the west country

[csiedmo]

Hello everyone,

 

Does anybody have any knowledge of blue spot fish vans appearing in Devon or Somerset around the mid to late 1960s? I'm thinking primarily of parcels traffic, but I'd be interested to know if they appeared on other workings too.

David Larkin's most recent tome seems to suggest that prior to being converted to SPVs they pretty much stuck to the ER but with a few operating in South Wales.

So I'm thinking that the answer is 'no', but I'd like to know for sure.

 

Many thanks,

Ed

[AberdeenBill]

Not really answering the question, but I did indeed once see one at Carmarthen in about 1977, complete with VFV TOPS code.     These also an earlier picture in one of the Cheona volumes of a fish van at Bournemouth. 

 

Bill

[great central]

Perhaps a bit early for your timeframe Ed, but the Grimsby-Whitland fish train used to include a number of Blue Spot vans when it ran up the GC in the early 60s behind an Immingham Brit. I believe it used to drop off vans at various places along the way so maybe some of them were forwarded to the West Country? That train was the highlight of the day, after the York-Bournemouth, on the GC section after through services were cut by the Midland region, didn't half leave a pong behind it   

[stovepipe]

Quite a few SPVs had Western prefixes, without checking an RCTS book I would say at least 75. I have a picture from the internet somewhere, showing three at Exeter in 1973 in parcels service with Redruth chalked on the side of one. I don't know exactly when the SPVs were allocated to the WR, but the first SPVs were seen in 1968. Eventually 600 of the 1058 diagram 800 and 801 fish vans built were converted to SPVs.

Edit: This photo
http://www.dansk-jernbanearkiv.dk/turf/t7307/sh03345.jpg

[csiedmo]

Thanks for your replies chaps. I'm really looking at 1967, so before the conversion to SPVs. I was wondering if most the fish traffic was gone by then and if so what the fish vans were being used for.

[stovepipe]

About 150 of the Diagram 800 vehicles (same as the Hornby ones) were used as vanfits, after they fell out of fish traffic use. I suppose they might have got down to the West Country in odd numbers. The only fish traffic I'm aware they were used on in teh WR, is from Carmarthen/Whitland from the late 1960s.

[Fat Controller]

About 150 of the Diagram 800 vehicles (same as the Hornby ones) were used as vanfits, after they fell out of fish traffic use. I suppose they might have got down to the West Country in odd numbers. The only fish traffic I'm aware they were used on in teh WR, is from Carmarthen/Whitland from the late 1960s.

The post-Fish ones did work in the West Country, albeit during the 1970s. There are some in this photo of Drump Lane, Cornwall, from Andy Kirkham's site:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10419766834/in/set-72157636828119615

There are views of others in one of the 'Heyday' series of albums of WR diesel hydraulics. I saw a lot around Bristol during the mid-1970s, I recollect

There seem to have been two groups of re-used Insulfish wagons; one lot were classed as 'SPV' (Special Parcels Vans), recoded as NPCCS when TOPS appeared, whilst the others were coded as Vanfits, subsequently VXV under TOPS. I wonder if anyone here knows why? Were one lot intended for Rail Express Parcels, and the other for NCL Sundries traffic?

The Welsh fish traffic would have been from Milford Haven; Whitland and Carmarthen would be unlikely to produce more than a few salmon and sewin...There was still a daily Perishables working from Milford into the early 1970s; you could generally tell when it had been through Llanelli station. Here's a link to a photo from 1972:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/richard_davies_collection/6530982109/in/set-72157628358611339

David Larkin's latest tome on NPCCS has a view of an Insulfish at Milford Haven dating from 1975, which must have been at the tail-end of such traffic. 

[stovepipe]

The post-Fish ones did work in the West Country, albeit during the 1970s. There are some in this photo of Drump Lane, Cornwall, from Andy Kirkham's site:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10419766834/in/set-72157636828119615

There are views of others in one of the 'Heyday' series of albums of WR diesel hydraulics. I saw a lot around Bristol during the mid-1970s, I recollect

There seem to have been two groups of re-used Insulfish wagons; one lot were classed as 'SPV' (Special Parcels Vans), recoded as NPCCS when TOPS appeared, whilst the others were coded as Vanfits, subsequently VXV under TOPS. I wonder if anyone here knows why? Were one lot intended for Rail Express Parcels, and the other for NCL Sundries traffic?

The Welsh fish traffic would have been from Milford Haven; Whitland and Carmarthen would be unlikely to produce more than a few salmon and sewin...There was still a daily Perishables working from Milford into the early 1970s; you could generally tell when it had been through Llanelli station. Here's a link to a photo from 1972:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/richard_davies_collection/6530982109/in/set-72157628358611339

David Larkin's latest tome on NPCCS has a view of an Insulfish at Milford Haven dating from 1975, which must have been at the tail-end of such traffic. 

 

Yes the 1970s use of SPVs on the WR is noted further up, Bristol seems to have been a particular hot-spot.

While I was waiting by Fray Bentos, on Flickr

 

Not sure where I got Carmarthen from...must have been thinking of Milk, but there was a loaded fish train to Whitland from Grimsby which seems a little strange I grant you. Regarding the use of ER vans on the WR I should have said Fishguard, from David Larkins wagon series, published in 1975 by Bradford Barton. 

Some of the general freight traffic conversions were classed as insulated vans, and had 'not to be loaded with fish' markings, but Larkin does not know what they were used for.

 

There was a Hull - Plymouth fish train in the mid-1960s - I wonder if any of the ER van types found their way on to it?

 

The very last fish traffic on the rails was, I think, from Aberdeen to Kings Cross, lasting to the end of 1976, or possibly early 1977.

[Fat Controller]

 

Yes the 1970s use of SPVs on the WR is noted further up, Bristol seems to have been a particular hot-spot.

While I was waiting by Fray Bentos, on Flickr

 

Not sure where I got Carmarthen from...must have been thinking of Milk, but there was a loaded fish train to Whitland from Grimsby which seems a little strange I grant you. Regarding the use of ER vans on the WR I should have said Fishguard, from David Larkins wagon series, published in 1975 by Bradford Barton. 

Some of the general freight traffic conversions were classed as insulated vans, and had 'not to be loaded with fish' markings, but Larkin does not know what they were used for.

 

There was a Hull - Plymouth fish train in the mid-1960s - I wonder if any of the ER van types found their way on to it?

 

The very last fish traffic on the rails was, I think, from Aberdeen to Kings Cross, lasting to the end of 1976, or possibly early 1977.

Despite the name, I don't think you'll have found fish being landed at Fishguard, as the only ships working into it have been the Irish ferries since before WW1. The vans might have been used to carry meat or eggs, imported from Ireland, however. The Grimsby- Whitland train was probably loaded in both directions- the two ports would have landed different types of fish, and there were fish processing plants around Grimsby that would take some of the fish from the Irish Sea fisheries, especially monkfish and hake.

I suspect the insulated vans may have carried things like frozen fish fingers, or possibly fish offal and trimmings for pet food production; you wouldn't want the former contaminated by fishy odours, whilst you wouldn't wantthe odours of the latter to contaminate fish..

I would imagine the ER vans would have been used for the Plymouth workings; I think they were used alongside the BR version, with the only division being between roller-bearing fitted examples, reserved for the London traffic, and the rest.

There was fish traffic, conveyed as tail traffic on passenger trains, from Wick or Thurso to Aberdeen which may have outlasted the trunk trains to London.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Despite the name, I don't think you'll have found fish being landed at Fishguard, as the only ships working into it have been the Irish ferries since before WW1. The vans might have been used to carry meat or eggs, imported from Ireland, however. The Grimsby- Whitland train was probably loaded in both directions- the two ports would have landed different types of fish, and there were fish processing plants around Grimsby that would take some of the fish from the Irish Sea fisheries, especially monkfish and hake.

I suspect the insulated vans may have carried things like frozen fish fingers, or possibly fish offal and trimmings for pet food production; you wouldn't want the former contaminated by fishy odours, whilst you wouldn't wantthe odours of the latter to contaminate fish..

I would imagine the ER vans would have been used for the Plymouth workings; I think they were used alongside the BR version, with the only division being between roller-bearing fitted examples, reserved for the London traffic, and the rest.

There was fish traffic, conveyed as tail traffic on passenger trains, from Wick or Thurso to Aberdeen which may have outlasted the trunk trains to London.

 

Not wishing to seem pedantic Brian, but Whitland isn't a port!

 

Mike.

[stovepipe]

I know the 1970s Larkin books have a few errors, I guess Fishguard is another one.

 

By ER vans I mean Eastern Region vans not just the LNER origin ones.

 

In terms of WR fish traffic, Oxford appears to heve been a major staging location, with many short haul fish trains originating there, presumably broken down from the trunk hauls.

[Fat Controller]

Not wishing to seem pedantic Brian, but Whitland isn't a port!

 

Mike.

I knew that- I don't think you'd get a canoe up the river... I meant Milford Haven, of course.

[Andy Kirkham]

According to Richard Parker's Railways of Pembrokeshire, fish traffic continued from Milford Haven until 29th June 1981.

[The Stationmaster]

The post-Fish ones did work in the West Country, albeit during the 1970s. There are some in this photo of Drump Lane, Cornwall, from Andy Kirkham's site:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10419766834/in/set-72157636828119615

There are views of others in one of the 'Heyday' series of albums of WR diesel hydraulics. I saw a lot around Bristol during the mid-1970s, I recollect

There seem to have been two groups of re-used Insulfish wagons; one lot were classed as 'SPV' (Special Parcels Vans), recoded as NPCCS when TOPS appeared, whilst the others were coded as Vanfits, subsequently VXV under TOPS. I wonder if anyone here knows why? Were one lot intended for Rail Express Parcels, and the other for NCL Sundries traffic?

The Welsh fish traffic would have been from Milford Haven; Whitland and Carmarthen would be unlikely to produce more than a few salmon and sewin...There was still a daily Perishables working from Milford into the early 1970s; you could generally tell when it had been through Llanelli station. Here's a link to a photo from 1972:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/richard_davies_collection/6530982109/in/set-72157628358611339

David Larkin's latest tome on NPCCS has a view of an Insulfish at Milford Haven dating from 1975, which must have been at the tail-end of such traffic. 

Situation was very simple I think Brian.

 

Some were coded SPV (which I always understood to be Small Parcels van) and were allocated to parcels working and accordingly ran in pre-determined balances, or should have, on parcels workings.  The ones which were converted to, in effect, a sort of vanfit and coded VXV under TOPS were freight vehicles and used for freight traffic.  One of the bigger flows they were used on was between what by then were the NCL depots at Paddington and Bristol and I understand that initially the idea of using them for that was that they offered better loadability than traditional Vanfits plus they could run faster, and do so without much risk of hotboxes, hence they were dedicated to working between NCL depots with the aim of retaining trunk traffic to rail  (it still went of course).

[Orange Alco]

There used to be (1976 and 1977 probably) an early evening down working through Teignmouth of a Class 25 on SPVs...I'd always been under the impression they were from Aylesbury distributing Reader's Digests

[Rivercider]

There used to be (1976 and 1977 probably) an early evening down working through Teignmouth of a Class 25 on SPVs...I'd always been under the impression they were from Aylesbury distributing Reader's Digests

I imagine this would have been a weekly service? 

 

Paul Bartletts wagon photo site has a number of photos of SPVs taken at Aylesbury in the 1970s

 

cheers

[bubbles2]

I have seen pictures of them in ice blue or white livery at Churston station stabled in the bay oposite the Brixham branch bay. Also there is a picture in a diesel book of a maroon Western with an ice blue fish van immediately behind it with small yellow NCL Express stickers pasted onit at Newton abbot station.

[hmrspaul]

I imagine this would have been a weekly service? 

 

Paul Bartletts wagon photo site has a number of photos of SPVs taken at Aylesbury in the 1970s

 

cheers

Wasn't RD a monthly?

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfish/e9828bcd

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

Wasn't RD a monthly?

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfish/e9828bcd

 

Paul

Yes.  Back in the mid-late 1960s it was cleared from Aylesbury in a number of direct vans to various places where it was 'broken down' for onward re-fowarding.  It was parcels traffic and can what I can remember of putting the details on notices some of it went in 'large vans' (i.e 8 wheelers) and some went in 'small vans' - which probably included vanfits as the station was under LMR control at the time. 

[jonny777]

Wasn't RD a monthly?

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfish/e9828bcd

 

Paul

 

 

There used to be a big vinyl record pressing plant near Aylesbury, because some of my mates got part time jobs there in the packing department.

 

Maybe there was more than just Readers Digest in the vans?

[Andy Kirkham]

Also glimpsed here https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10421585114/in/set-72157636831654216

[hmrspaul]

Yes.  Back in the mid-late 1960s it was cleared from Aylesbury in a number of direct vans to various places where it was 'broken down' for onward re-fowarding.  It was parcels traffic and can what I can remember of putting the details on notices some of it went in 'large vans' (i.e 8 wheelers) and some went in 'small vans' - which probably included vanfits as the station was under LMR control at the time. 

Yes, my collections show LMS 50ft BGs, SR CCT and PMV in the RD traffic at Aylesbury.

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

There used to be a big vinyl record pressing plant near Aylesbury, because some of my mates got part time jobs there in the packing department.

 

Maybe there was more than just Readers Digest in the vans?

If it was one of Captain Bob's plants (BPCC), which I'm pretty certain it was, then there would have been 'Radio Times' and all sorts of other mags.

[Ben04uk]

There is a picture in the Bradford Barton series 'Diesels on Western Region', Page 62, which shows a Class 25 with at least three SPV vans (one no. E87199) at Long Rock, Penzance, with a freight working between Ponsandane to Exeter Riverside.

[HGT1972]

The Milford Haven traffic in fish vans lasted until 1977 with the last 16 of that pool stored there by the summer before heading to Derby for condemnation. After that the remaining traffic used standard parcels vans of various types carrying boxes - they were not in a specific pool so no doubt whiffed a bit by the time they returned to their usual traffic! June 1981 was the last movement and that was in BR GUVs.

 

Hywel