johnd Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Just been having a look at the " Reatime Trains " web site and was looking at Manchester Piccadilly and happened to notice a number of services from Euston to Manchester were continuing to Liverpool Lime Street. Yes it uses the Inter city route as built by Mr Stephenson. Has anybody else noticed this or even travelled on the service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted May 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2015 Just been having a look at the " Reatime Trains " web site and was looking at Manchester Piccadilly and happened to notice a number of services from Euston to Manchester were continuing to Liverpool Lime Street. Yes it uses the Inter city route as built by Mr Stephenson. Has anybody else noticed this or even travelled on the service. This is a new feature made possible since the Liverpool - Manchester via Chat Moss scheme was completed a few months ago. While such a service seams a little illogical at first it is an excellent way of keeping drivers route knowledge of the diversionary possibilities now available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted May 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2015 Are there by any chance some engineering works in the Weaver junction area that would stop anything going north from Crewe to Liverpool either via Weaver Junction or Warrington. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 Pendolino's on Chat Moss now there's a thought ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Engineering works probably. Yesterday a lot of the London Glasgow services were run by Voyagers diverting via Northampton then Crewe to Chester & Reverse to Warrington, also they were only running to Carlisle. Crewe - Warrington shut so Liverpool trains probably ran via Manchester. Lots of strange workings this long weekend. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Do they stop at any intermediate stations or is it just a Manchester-Liverpool service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted May 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2015 However this shows the usefulness of a relatively small bit of wiring to add diversionary routes to what is in effect a long 2 track line from Crewe to Glasgow. It's good that such uses have been thought of and the trials with pendolinos on the new route make more sense. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Do they stop at any intermediate stations or is it just a Manchester-Liverpool service? I doubt the intermediate station platforms are long enough for 9 or 11 car Pendolinos. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 On the Virgin tv advert for the Euston to Manchester service it shows the train arriving at Liverpool Lime Street. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nak8cpFJsY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 You could run all sorts of Virgin services via Manchester once all the wires are up (Bolton) and give us even more opportunity to sit in half empty trains off peak to London but give us interesting options west and north. But capacity in the Piccadilly to Deansgate corridor plus I suspect valid objections by passengers about longer journey times will probably restrict such trains to just keeping route knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 There were ECS moves of Pendolinos between Liverpool and Manchester hauled dead by Class 57's before the wires went up: http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains2012/December-2012/i-4w4tVpK/A When this photo was taken the wires terminated on the last structure and the 57 is out of sight to the right. I expect that now the wires are up they have dispensed with the 57, and are running under their own power. And if a full crew also needs to go with them too why not carry passengers also? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I guess an ECS wouldn't have to run to a set time, just be at its destination by a certain time. That means it can be slotted in amongst all the other revenue earning trains, but if it carried passengers then it becomes fixed. I also expect TPE and EMT would have an argument about abstraction from their services if Virgin stuck a whopping 11 coach Pendolino on a service, but it would certainly clear the commuters in the evening if we had just one service from Manchester to Liverpool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted May 25, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2015 There were ECS moves of Pendolinos between Liverpool and Manchester hauled dead by Class 57's before the wires went up: http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains2012/December-2012/i-4w4tVpK/A That's a Longsight - Preston. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I guess an ECS wouldn't have to run to a set time, just be at its destination by a certain time. That means it can be slotted in amongst all the other revenue earning trains, but if it carried passengers then it becomes fixed. I also expect TPE and EMT would have an argument about abstraction from their services if Virgin stuck a whopping 11 coach Pendolino on a service, but it would certainly clear the commuters in the evening if we had just one service from Manchester to Liverpool. Maybe TPE and/or EMT should hire one to free up other stock. As you say, even if it was only a service or two that went directly from Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street without stopping it could clear the commuters! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted May 25, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2015 Maybe TPE and/or EMT should hire one to free up other stock. As you say, even if it was only a service or two that went directly from Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street without stopping it could clear the commuters! You forget a little thing called 'ORCAS Raid' - Remember all franchises are severely restricted as to what they can do with the services they run by the DfT. If Virgin were allowed to operate between Manchester and Liverpool that has big financial implications for the revenues the TPE and Northern franchises make (due to the way it gets distributed between multiple operators running over the same routes), which in turn can mean big changes to the subsidy profile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 You forget a little thing called 'ORCAS Raid' - Remember all franchises are severely restricted as to what they can do with the services they run by the DfT. If Virgin were allowed to operate between Manchester and Liverpool that has big financial implications for the revenues the TPE and Northern franchises make (due to the way it gets distributed between multiple operators running over the same routes), which in turn can mean big changes to the subsidy profile. thats why I said TPE and/or EMT should hire one from Virgin .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted May 26, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 26, 2015 thats why I said TPE and/or EMT should hire one from Virgin .... Not sure that Virgin would have one spare at the time it could do any good. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Maybe divert a London - Liverpool service via Manchester - a 15:20 departure would hit Manchester at just the right time to pick up the commuters and deliver them safely back into Liverpool. Actually there is a Manchester departure at 15:20 so just extend that to Liverpool but get it back quick to return to London later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 It's looking as though it's back to normality all Euston trains are terminating at Piccadily. What the weekend has shown is the possibilities are. Just consider when electrification is over the Pennines to Leeds/York Virgin could the easily run the Liverpool/York/Newcastle service and onwards to Edinburgh, that could mean sets in theory running up the west coast and down the east coast ( integration ), Interesting possibilities ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 They would be but Virgin doesn't have the excess stock They couldn't integrate ECML and WCML services (which I imagine they can't as they are separate franchises) Abstraction would likely apply even if Virgin were running both services as both have to provide a return to the Treasury IEPs going the other way coudn't tilt and it would be a waste of a tilting train unable to tilt going the other way. However TPE may one day travel up from Newcastle to Edinburgh like they do now via the WCML Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 It's looking as though it's back to normality all Euston trains are terminating at Piccadily. What the weekend has shown is the possibilities are. Just consider when electrification is over the Pennines to Leeds/York Virgin could the easily run the Liverpool/York/Newcastle service and onwards to Edinburgh, that could mean sets in theory running up the west coast and down the east coast ( integration ), Interesting possibilities ! They could also run services from some of the Pennine towns, such as Huddersfield, direct to London and Birmingham. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted May 26, 2015 Author Share Posted May 26, 2015 Never say Never Woodenhead strange things have been known to happen ! Anyway was just thinking of possibilities out load, maybe be a case of watch this space ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Andy W Posted May 27, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 27, 2015 You forget a little thing called 'ORCAS Raid' It's actually ORCATS - the system that in the early years of privatisation allocated revenue between various operators for each ticket issued between any pair of stations. Things are a little more sophisticated now and allocated revenue is much more proportional to number of trains offered and actual usage of some of the more obscure routes available. ORCAS are Killer Whales, you don't want to be around if they come raiding.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Oh. I thought it had something to do with a small boat, a harpoon and some yellow barrels... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Now I've heard of thread drift before, but this one's a very serious case! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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