Digital Sound At Exhibitions

[Graham Walters]

In this months Hornby magazine there is an article about the amount of noise created by DCC layouts with sound and exhibitions,  and the volume at which it played at.

 

The author is asking that it be turned down, and even preferably off and says that an exhibition is not the place  for layouts to have sound, as when there are a few it creates quite a loud noise.

 

I noticed that at our exhibition last year, that not only were layout owners using digital sound, some not wanting to be outdone were using background sound, one layout the operator was generating noise by using a computer.

 

The halls we use are in general quite small, and if every layout were to start using sound, then the noise would become unbearable when mixed with the hubbub of human noise.

 

I just wondered what others think about this, and should exhibition organisers request that layouts either turn the noise right down, or turn it off completely ?

[PaulRhB]

Graham this has been discussed at length several times and basically some would agree and some don't. It's got to be left to individual show managers to decide if it's excessive and turn it down. There will be no consensus

[kevpeo]

Apart from anything else, ''turning them down'' is not a simple matter. In my case all the loco's on Loch Dour have been carefully balanced at home, volume wise, so that non are too loud or too quiet. And if you have a roster of over a hundred loco's/units as on Coppell, by the time we had turned them all down it would be time to pack up and go home!  Kev.

[roundhouse]

What I will say is that our layouts with sound do attract a lot of viewers, many may not be enthusiasts but we get a lot of good comments from viewers but I now there are those who will also be anti sound.

 

It's getting the volume at the right levels that can be heard by viewers and at the same time don't annoy other exhibitors. Not an easy thing to achieve. The one thing I do is to try and limit the use of bells on our US locos. If I find that they have been left on when parked up I will search those out and switch them off.

 

It's not always easy to turn down volumes if it's a quiet or small room unless that info is known in advance of setting up at a show.

Our N scale does have a system with an overall volume knob so we can adjust the overall sound. However it's very easy for it to be turned up too loud.

 

Too many sound layouts next to each other does often mean that it does become a tangle of noise though.

 

I do remember doing a show quite some years ago where three of us (all still friends) each had a layout with sound next to each other. The On30 layout was the loudest as the locos have room for larger speakers, another had a class 20 whistling away and our British outline steam hissing away but much quieter as back then there wasn't generally the room for larger or louder speakers and I had the volume below the maximum setting.

 

I have yet to have an exhibition organiser request no sounds in advance or at the show so I suspect that I just don't get asked if they don't want sound fitted layouts.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

I just wondered what others think about this, and should exhibition organisers request that layouts either turn the noise right down, or turn it off completely ?

I hate most of them, especially TMD layouts with ten locos whistling away in discordant tones. Many do not sound how they would in the real warld when mixed with background noise.

 

I started a thread to that effect a couple of years ago and it was locked within hours.

[Graham Walters]

I did realise that this would probably be a can of worms.

 

I'm asking the question because next year I will be organising the layout of our show on my own, and I was interested to know if this should be taken into consideration, and how you would go about asking layout organisers to keep sound to a minimum, without minimising the pleasure that the public obviously get from hearing models make a noise.

[MarkSG]

Apart from anything else, ''turning them down'' is not a simple matter. In my case all the loco's on Loch Dour have been carefully balanced at home, volume wise, so that non are too loud or too quiet. And if you have a roster of over a hundred loco's/units as on Coppell, by the time we had turned them all down it would be time to pack up and go home!  Kev.

 

Therein lies the problem, though, because - as anyone who has ever worked as a sound/audio engineer will know - audio has to be balanced to suit the location where the sound will be heard. You have to take into account the acoustics of the location as well as any potential for background or ambient noise. So it's simply not possible to balance the sound in one place, then go to a different place and expect it still to sound OK.

 

There isn't a simple solution to this as far as loco sound on layouts is concerned, because there isn't the time (or, for that matter, the opportunity) to balance it properly in live, public running conditions at every exhibition hall. So the best you can do is an approximation. But, that being the case, it's best to err on the side of caution and risk it being too quiet rather than too loud. Nobody is going to be offended if they can't hear it. But there will be plenty of people who are offended if they can hear it in places where they should not (eg, at neighbouring layouts).

[Kenton]

You could always put it to a vote. I used to be very much against but now not so much so. I think exhibition organisers / layout owners are starting to realise that standing even over their own noisy locos for 2 days is tiring. Especially when the noises emanating from all the other layouts in the hall are vying to be the loudest. Cacophony just about describes it.

[ColinK]

I was at one show where a well known trader was demonstrating sound fitted locos, I could hear his 37 from right across the hall. Trouble was, his 37 sounded so so good, I had to give him lots of cash to install sound in some of my locos.

 

Joking apart, the answer to the original question is sensible compromise; yes, lets have sound fitted layout, but located apart from each other and with volumes not too loud.

[gismorail]

In this months Hornby magazine there is an article about the amount of noise created by DCC layouts with sound and exhibitions,  and the volume at which it played at.

 

The author is asking that it be turned down, and even preferably off and says that an exhibition is not the place  for layouts to have sound, as when there are a few it creates quite a loud noise.

 

I noticed that at our exhibition last year, that not only were layout owners using digital sound, some not wanting to be outdone were using background sound, one layout the operator was generating noise by using a computer.

 

The halls we use are in general quite small, and if every layout were to start using sound, then the noise would become unbearable when mixed with the hubbub of human noise.

 

I just wondered what others think about this, and should exhibition organisers request that layouts either turn the noise right down, or turn it off completely ?

I attended the Derby show the other week and there was an American layout which had a background sound of a locomotive on constantly, it was'nt even acting in time with the trains working on the layout . Now to be fair it was'nt that loud but it was a droning , rumble and it could be heard throughout the whole exhibition and was annoying to say the least.  

[Phil Bullock]

For some of us sound is integral - on Abbotswood its part of the the recreation, the countryside quiet invaded by a passing train.

 

But we do only have the sound on when trains run through the scenic section....

 

Phil

[colin penfold]

whether some people like it or not, sound is part of the modern modelling scene. As such, you can't "ban" it from exhibitions nor should you. Exhibitions are part of how people learn about the hobby and it should all be there to see and hear. In the same way as I'm not a big fan of foreign layouts and feel frankly nauseous at the smell generated by smoke units I would expect them to be part of exhibitions and simply walk on by those exhibits. Totally agree with those who have already said - if you are an organiser - find out who's layouts have sound and spread them out across the hall so they don't clash

[Crantock]

Abbotswood gets it right.  Quality sound and quality running and the best disguised roundy roundy (slowy slowy) going.  82G at Railex impressed me for the sensible use of incidental sounds you would get in a depot  but nothing constant.  

 

I am afraid Rhydwyn Fawr is a little too loud for an open hall and I agree some US layouts are intrusive and diesel depot cacophony is a bore.

 

For the organiser does this lead to mixing traders and exhibits in a slightly more mingled way so you don't have side by side sound?

[pheaton]

I think....what the guy was eluding to in the letter was a dcc sound fitted class 20.....

 

this has mentioned has been discussed before and its quite an emotive subject.....and without wishing to offend people i find that most people who speak out againsed dcc sound are analogue die hards! and i think they have more of a problem with DCC rather than DCC sound....dcc sound can only drown out sound from another layout...unless it upsets you that you cant hear the electric motor in a 9f....

 

DCC sound has never been about absolute realism....DCC sound will never be....."shut your eyes and your there" because you simply cant miniaturise sound in that way, but its about making it more realistic than it is at the moment, because you will never convince me that a non sound fitted 20 is better than a sound fitted 20, but i can be realistic and even i cant have it running on the layout for hours on end i can turn it off...however with a layout at an exhibition you are kept busy  running different loco's.

 

I think people pay far too much attention to something thats a hobby.....they get too caught up in it, and from some of the letters i have read they just take things far too seriously...

 

Again my opinion is a sound fitted layout has just as much right to be there as a non sound fitted layout........

[Zomboid]

Speaking purely as a punter, I like sound fitted layouts where the sounds are at least mildly convincing - I'm yet to hear an OO steam loco that wasn't far too tinny, for example, but a lot of the diesel sounds are pretty reasonable. It works even better in O scale.

I also only want to hear the sound from the layout I'm standing in front of. (I've found that to mostly be the case, but tinny sounds can carry quite a long way...).

[Graham Walters]

I think....what the guy was eluding to in the letter was a dcc sound fitted class 20.....

 

this has mentioned has been discussed before and its quite an emotive subject.....and without wishing to offend people i find that most people who speak out againsed dcc sound are analogue die hards! and i think they have more of a problem with DCC rather than DCC sound....dcc sound can only drown out sound from another layout...unless it upsets you that you cant hear the electric motor in a 9f....

 

DCC sound has never been about absolute realism....DCC sound will never be....."shut your eyes and your there" because you simply cant miniaturise sound in that way, but its about making it more realistic than it is at the moment, because you will never convince me that a non sound fitted 20 is better than a sound fitted 20, but i can be realistic and even i cant have it running on the layout for hours on end i can turn it off...however with a layout at an exhibition you are kept busy  running different loco's.

 

I think people pay far too much attention to something thats a hobby.....they get too caught up in it, and from some of the letters i have read they just take things far too seriously...

 

Again my opinion is a sound fitted layout has just as much right to be there as a non sound fitted layout........

 

I didn't want to imply that layouts with sound should be banned, or have no right to be at an exhibition due to noise pollution across the hall(s).

 

My point was about the volume seemingly being a competition as suggested by the author in Hornby magazine, and how forum members felt about sound at an exhibition.

 

The problem with our exhibition as with most I guess is that one of the halls we hold it in, has the acoustics of a tin can ! the other hall doubles as a theatre but is considerably smaller, having four or five layouts with sound competing with each other could be an issue to some in either hall.

[naturol]

You could always put it to a vote. I used to be very much against but now not so much so. I think exhibition organisers / layout owners are starting to realise that standing even over their own noisy locos for 2 days is tiring. Especially when the noises emanating from all the other layouts in the hall are vying to be the loudest. Cacophony just about describes it.

I have exhibited two layouts recently both with sound fitted locos, and I completely agree with the train of thought of Kenton, It does my head in, and they are MY locos, after one day it's irritating, after one and a half I've normally turned them off. Great at home though.

[Ramblin Rich]

My two penn'orth...

I agree that sound needs to be kept 'non-intrusive' (if there is such a phrase), but it plays a useful part in keeping attention on a layout if things are stationary. There is an anticipation of something about to happen if a loco/unit has sound and is idling (awaiting a signal or just on a station stop); other effects (guards whistle, or buzzer use for a DMU) makes a longer station stop seem more realistic, rather than just a stop-go manoeuvre. Moving away at a convincing acceleration also works well if the driving matches the sounds.

[newbryford]

For some of us sound is integral - on Abbotswood its part of the the recreation, the countryside quiet invaded by a passing train.

 

But we do only have the sound on when trains run through the scenic section....

 

Phil

 

Like Phil, the sound on "Blackmill" was only turned on for locos/DMU's as they enter the scenic section. The same routine is followed on New Bryford. As there's normally only 2 or 3 items on the front, then it isn't too loud.

 

What irks me is a mis-match in sound levels for a particular item of stock. There was one show we attended, where the door beepers on a DMU on a layout about 40 feet away were audible above the sound of the crowd.

 

DCC sound is a bit like Marmite, love it or hate it, but there are those out there with sound that seemingly cover themselves in the stuff.....................

 

Cheers,

Mick

[pheaton]

I Appreciate that graham and let me just say its really good your trying to improve your show by gauging opinion.....

 

if you have two halls, then i would be tempted to lump the sound fitted layouts together, very few locos are as ear splitting to be heard across the room, and the majority need to the person to be close to hear properly esp in a hall. So i woulnt be too concerned about layouts drowning each other out....as i suspect also it would influence what locos each layout is running. I personally think you would get a lot of kudos for listening to feeback and trying to cater for everyones tastes....

[terry.ecmr]

Having an urban layout I have found that many people comment on how much sound adds to the general atmosphere.

 

But I do try carefully to make sure that nothing is too loud, to the extent that Howes kindly added a function to my ex LMS 10000 loco which enables me to reduce the volume by 50% when it is idling in the station, as I had found that this could be slightly loud in relation to the other sounds.

 

Also, when my loco's pass under the over-bridge and into the fiddle yard I often turn off the sound, so that only loco's actually in view have their sound turned on.

 

It's all about common sense and consideration. As others have stated the ambient venue noise and acoustics will have an effect so it can be difficult.

 

Also, many younger exhibition visitors are attracted by the sound. Surely we need to encourage youngsters to make sure the hobby thrives in the future.

 

But banning layouts with sound?

Or alternatively how about banning layouts where nothing runs for ages while the punters patiently wait?

Which of the above options offer more entertainment?

 

Terry

'Earl's Court Model Railway'

ecmr.webs.com

[bbishop]

As I use cassettes, the locos on Höchstädt are silent unless they are on the scenic part of the layout.  The maximum on scene is three and we only use the bell when traversing the track between the station building and the platform.  Most of the locos are pretty quiet, audible to about six feet; the one exception is the V200, and that has such a gorgeous, deep throated roar, that we don't have the heart to turn it down.   

 

But at some point we will install an oom-pah band in the beer garden, with sound.  So, if someone objects to the locomotives, we'll just turn the music up.

 

Bill

[Zomboid]

...Be better if it was fitted to wagons and the general environment also though

I believe you can get sound fitted wagons for American outline, the refrigerated boxcars. Not that I've ever seen one, but I have seen the chips for sale as well as trucks with the pickups.

[br2975]

I do not operate sound fitted locos on my layout.

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I have no extreme views either way.

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My first experience of digital sound was in a well known Mississiagua (Ont.) model emporium; at a time when it was almost unheard of (pun intended) in the U.K.

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Seeing I was impressed, the assistant did mention "It's nice, but spend an evening operating a three unit concict and your opinion will change !"

 

Years later, and before it passed to new owners, I operated my brothers  "Ranelagh Bridge" at a number of shows.

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About 50% of the locos used on "RB" were sound fitted.

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The layout was built as a boxed diorama, with only the front open to the viewers.

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This contained the sound and to a degree directed it toward the viewers.

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This in turn allowed the sound system to be played at a lower volume.

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Other exhibitors may not choose to build a layout in such a manner (it may be impractical, due to the size of the layout); hence they are forced to turn up the volume of their locos.

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On one occasion, this had the effect of my watching a J15 shunting a buccolic East Anglian branch terminus but all I could hear was a brace of SD90MACs on double stacks three layouts away - sort of destroyed the effect a bit.

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"some" operators with sound are as (in)considerate(?) as "some" dog owners and "some" women pushing baby buggies................ but I get over it.

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Soap box interlude concluded.

 

Brian R

[roundhouse]

I believe you can get sound fitted wagons for American outline, the refrigerated boxcars. Not that I've ever seen one, but I have seen the chips for sale as well as trucks with the pickups.

I have one of those Athearn refer cars but yet to use it in a show environment. It doesn't seem that loud do it might be fine and it also automatically starts and stops as per the prototype refrigeration units do.

I imagine that a whole yard full of them in a quiet venue might get annoying though.

 

Regarding continuous nouse from a fiddleyard, on my HO layout we only have space for one or two locos off scene plus there are isolation switches.

 

On the N scale layout the sound system only works when the loco is on the scenic boards. However there are one or two locos with their own on board sound but they are not that loud in N scale.

 

The first time that I had a sound fitted HO scale loco at a show on the layout, I could hear the bell in the other hall which also had a corridor leading to it from the hall that we were in. Since then I have set the bell volumes much lower when reprogramming the locos otherwise it would be a case of 'it's the bells' when trying to get to sleep the night after a show!!!!