10800 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Point rodding, cranks, compensators & cables by 10800 original page on Old RMweb __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:00 am Since there seems to be an interest in point rodding etc at the moment, not least from me, it was convenient that my travels yesterday took me past Bridgnorth on the Severn Valley Railway where I stopped off to have a look at the ground-level infrastructure. No trains running, at least not at this end of the line, due to the damage caused by the flooding earlier this year. Bridgnorth has a signalbox on the platform, so first stop looks at how the rods and cables emerge (couldn't get better views due to a train stabled in the opposite platform) and how they are then cranked at right angles in the six foot. Note also the signal cables routed immediately along the platform face by pulleys: Rodding stool detail The first compensators in this run are under the footbridge (just visible at the top of the photo): Two of the four rods are compensated simultaneously, presumably because that is their common neutral point Handy that the footbridge was there for an overhead view The other two rods were compensated individually a few yards further on Here one of the rods has a 'branch' cranked off to operate one point of a crossover; the 'main' rod will continue to the other point in the pair so that both points are operated together by the same lever. View from the other side (and no I didn't walk across the tracks ) showing the connections to the point blades Also note the locking bars preventing inappropriate pulling of signals for a given point condition. I thought this sort of thing was done in the locking frame in the box, or is this an additional safeguard? Facing point lock (FPL) and cover (also with integrated signal wire locking bars) A few shots of signal cables and how they are carried and made to change direction And finally some details of hand operated points and their levers in the yard __________________________________________ Comment posted by stuartp on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:14 am Superb ! Thanks Rod, much right clicking going on here. Having spent a lot of my working life picking my way carefully over this stuff it's amazing how much detail you forget, and how much you didn't realise was there in the first place. Also note the locking bars preventing inappropriate pulling of signals for a given point condition. I thought this sort of thing was done in the locking frame in the box, or is this an additional safeguard? Correct. Mechanical locking between levers is done in the box, ensuring you can't move certain levers until others are in the right position. What you have there are detection bars (not sure what the correct term is if that's not it) ensuring that even if the lever is free, the signal won't clear until the point blades are fitting up correctly. __________________________________________ Comment posted by beast66606 on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:13 pm Also note the locking bars preventing inappropriate pulling of signals for a given point condition. I thought this sort of thing was done in the locking frame in the box, or is this an additional safeguard? As StuartP has said, these are detections bars - you can see the slots cut into it which only allows the slide bar to move if correctly aligned, you can also see the slot for the other point position, simple and moderately effective, if you pulled a lever where the points were not sitting you would get a big spring effect and you had to watch getting the lever back - I have been out to give these little beggars a kick more than once to get the slide bars free. Being mechanical they are not perfect and some derailments can be attributed to bad adjustement. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Edwin_m on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:29 pm Fascinating stuff. Looking at the compensator, I presume its purpose is to convert a pull into a push and vice versa, therefore any thermal expansion in one half of the bar cancels out the same in the other half. Always assuming that one half isn't in the shade! __________________________________________ Comment posted by Captain Kernow on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:49 pm beast66606 wrote: As StuartP has said, these are detections bars - you can see the slots cut into it which only allows the slide bar to move if correctly aligned, you can also see the slot for the other point position, simple and moderately effective Now here's a question - who does these in 4mm scale (GW pattern point detectors, I mean!).... __________________________________________ ??? posted on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:54 pm Captain Kernow wrote: Now here's a question - who does these in 4mm scale (GW pattern point detectors, I mean!).... Well, you could just buy a selection of brass and plastic strip and section from Eileen's! __________________________________________ Comment posted by stuartp on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:41 pm beast66606 wrote: if you pulled a lever where the points were not sitting you would get a big spring effect and you had to watch getting the lever back Been there, done that, got the bruised knuckles. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Judge Dread on Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:25 pm stuartp wrote: beast66606 wrote: if you pulled a lever where the points were not sitting you would get a big spring effect and you had to watch getting the lever back Been there, done that, got the bruised knuckles. The big giggle was when a set of points were run through and the rodding looked like a rough night on the North Sea. There was the "bobby" jumping on the rodding hoping to straighten it and cover his error. Some hope, we had to cut out the bent parts and graft in a new length as well as the damage to the detectors. Form One for him, overtime for us. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Chubber on Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:36 pm Thanks for posting, Rod, carefully bookmarked for that day, long in the future when I might get round to that!! __________________________________________ ??? posted on Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:02 am Chubber wrote: Thanks for posting, Rod, carefully bookmarked for that day, long in the future when I might get round to that!! No problem Doug, I'm hoping to get to Horsted Keynes on Friday to check out the hardware there (which is closer to my prototype - assuming there are any significant differences). __________________________________________ Comment posted by Chubber on Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:35 pm Give my love to his brother Milton, won't you! __________________________________________ Comment posted by phil-b259 on Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:32 pm 10800 wrote: No problem Doug, I'm hoping to get to Horsted Keynes on Friday to check out the hardware there (which is closer to my prototype - assuming there are any significant differences). I hate to say it but you will be disapointed if you come looking for signal wires & rodding at Horsted Keyenes for the simple reason that there are none to be seen!. At pressent all signals are worked by electric 'signal machines' and all points are powered by motors. Although the intention is that when the lever frame is back in use (currently out of use pending completion of a total renewall of the mechanical locking) as many signals as possible will return to wire opperation, a shortage of levers dictates all points will remain motor worked. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Captain Kernow on Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:42 pm 10800 wrote: Captain Kernow wrote: Now here's a question - who does these in 4mm scale (GW pattern point detectors, I mean!).... Well, you could just buy a selection of brass and plastic strip and section from Eileen's! Well, yes, okaaaay, I thought someone would say that! Just wondered if the Stores did summat....? __________________________________________ ??? posted on Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:57 am Chubber wrote: Give my love to his brother Milton, won't you! I will, and his twin Maynard! __________________________________________ ??? posted on Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:59 am phil-b259 wrote: 10800 wrote: No problem Doug, I'm hoping to get to Horsted Keynes on Friday to check out the hardware there (which is closer to my prototype - assuming there are any significant differences). I hate to say it but you will be disapointed if you come looking for signal wires & rodding at Horsted Keyenes for the simple reason that there are none to be seen!. At pressent all signals are worked by electric 'signal machines' and all points are powered by motors. Although the intention is that when the lever frame is back in use (currently out of use pending completion of a total renewall of the mechanical locking) as many signals as possible will return to wire opperation, a shortage of levers dictates all points will remain motor worked. That's a shame, but since it's my favourite preserved railway and it's far too long since I was there last, I will probably still go! __________________________________________ Comment posted by Miss Prism on Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 pm Anyone got any pictures of electrical (i.e. for non-wire-operated signals) detection boxes adjacent to turnouts? __________________________________________ ??? posted on Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:42 am A few more shots of some rodding etc at Sheffield Park on the Bluebell Railway on 28 September Note the use of round section rodding here as opposed to the square section at Bridgnorth in the earlier photos. And look at the ups and downs in the track! Space for compensator on rods along the platform face Here note the white lights showing from the rear of the ground signals, indicating to the signalbox at night that they are correctly at danger. When pulled off the backblinders move in front of the lamp obscuring the white light. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Chubber on Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:58 pm Yup! Thank you. Useful photos, that also show how much electrickery is slung from the front overhang of platform fronts. Now someone will prove me wrong, but I can't recall seeing that modelled recently??? __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:12 pm Some more taken at Oakworth on the KWVR last month Facing point lock at the entrance to the goods yard ... ... operated by the ground frame just visible on the left Ground frame at the other end of the platform for the down starter and up inner home protecting the level crossing ('down' is uphill to Oxenhope and 'up' is downhill to Keighley, obviously! ) __________________________________________ Comment posted by bike2steam on Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:37 pm As a former volunteer on Swanage Railway S&T dept. it's good to see more attention being paid to S&T equipment by modellers. It was always what I look out for at exhibitions, it's quite astounding the number of 'top flight' layouts with signal boxes standing in the middle of nothing, no lead off for signals, or point work. Paul M. __________________________________________ Comment posted by 5050 on Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:06 pm Isn't the 'square' rodding actually an inverted channel section? I heard just recently that in early days the 'round' rodding was made from gas pipe tubing of the right diameter which rusted from the inside which is why the channel section replaced it. __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:01 am You may be right Paul, but you can't tell from any of these photos - would have to get down trackside and poke about, unless of course somebody knows for sure. __________________________________________ Comment posted by bike2steam on Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:57 am 5050 wrote: Isn't the 'square' rodding actually an inverted channel section? I heard just recently that in early days the 'round' rodding was made from gas pipe tubing of the right diameter which rusted from the inside which is why the channel section replaced it. You're right on the first count, with joiners that fit inside the ends, but as for the second, I've heard it before but as to being right I don't know. Paul M. And to 10800, if the undergrowth isn't checked it could always hide the equipment - eh ? __________________________________________ Comment posted by Chubber on Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:08 pm The little skateboard ramp over the locking arrangement is, I take it, a means of protecting the mechanism from damage from ATC gear????? __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:53 pm Or anything else I suppose like broken brake rods that might conceivably be hanging off under the train. __________________________________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 Point rodding, cranks, compensators & cables by 10800 original page on Old RMweb __________________________________________ Comment posted by 5050 on Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:10 pm The 'ramp' is a useful modelling dodge in that it means you don't have to create an exact replica of the locking gubbins (a technical term). I'm not sure of the 'chequerplate' version on the SVR. I would have thought this was a modern H&S requirement, original GWR would probably have been plain. __________________________________________ Comment posted by EM in Chelmsford on Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:38 pm <The little skateboard ramp over the locking arrangement is, I take it, a means of protecting the mechanism from damage from ATC gear?????> I know them as 'dink plates'. They are also there to prevent the PFL becoming damaged as a result of contact with dangling 3-link couplings. __________________________________________ Comment posted by The Stationmaster on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:23 am Interesting thread with an interesting, and rather mixed, collection of bits and pieces some of which I'll try to identify The Bluebell Railway views show generally Southern kit with SR type round rodding and stools (the things the rodding runs through) and cranks. The KWVR view shows an LMR pattern cover over the FPL, a design which latterly (possibly post LMS I think?) used chequerplate and was narrower than the GWR pattern seen at Bridgnorth. All covers were done away with in the 1980s or thereabouts to reduce risk of injury to S&T staff. Bridgnorth ids something of a mixture of Midland Region and Western practice with Western channel rodding running in Western style stools but slome LM pattern connections between point toes and detectors (the Western used round rodding for those, the LM used channel) but with Western pattern detectors. The handlevers are a common GW pattern with GW pattern stretcher bar arrangements. Might not show in 4mm but it is - if you know - none to diificult to identify which Region (and is some cases Company) installed stuff just from pics of point rodding, detectors and cranks. __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:12 pm The Stationmaster wrote: Might not show in 4mm but it is - if you know - none to diificult to identify which Region (and is some cases Company) installed stuff just from pics of point rodding, detectors and cranks.[/i] Interesting - my pics of Eridge (ex LBSCR/SR) seem to show a mixture of round and square section rodding - would the square be later replacements? __________________________________________ Comment posted by The Stationmaster on Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:44 pm 10800 wrote: The Stationmaster wrote: Might not show in 4mm but it is - if you know - none to diificult to identify which Region (and is some cases Company) installed stuff just from pics of point rodding, detectors and cranks.[/i] Interesting - my pics of Eridge (ex LBSCR/SR) seem to show a mixture of round and square section rodding - would the square be later replacements? Yes - channel rodding became the general replacement for round rodding as it was more resistant to wear and rust (it was galvanised) but it still needed round material to make the pinjoints (connections to cranks etc) and it was 'blacksmithed to fit inside the channel part in just the same way as the channel rodding fishplates were inserted. The advantage of channel rodding is that it is less susceptible to bending (but stays set if it is bent of course) and easier to reliably join piece by piece so a run can be laid quite quickly. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Rail-Online on Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:56 pm I was luck enough to visit the boxes at Shrewsbury in 1985 and took just a few photos of the rodding and cable wheels. Shrewsbury was a complicated place with changes to S&T ownership over the years, can anyone (Mike!) work out what they all are? Cheers Tony __________________________________________ Comment posted by The Stationmaster on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:00 pm Rail-Online wrote: I was luck enough to visit the boxes at Shrewsbury in 1985 and took just a few photos of the rodding and cable wheels. Shrewsbury was a complicated place with changes to S&T ownership over the years, can anyone (Mike!) work out what they all are? Cheers Tony The top pic is an LM pattern detector clearly detecting a single blade trap point (only one rod going to it) but it is mounted on WR pattern concrete beds. The middle pic is detecting a facing point (three blades coming in off the rods on the right) for three signal wires using two double detectors mounted next to each other with a mixture of LM and Western methods in attachment and fittings - obviously installed or altered after the LM took over as there is no sign of the normal Western arrangement of concrete beds and the way it is fixed down isn't Western either. The bottom pic has the strip steel carrying the pulley blocks mounted on at least one Western bed (with another part buried underneath and seemingly superseded which suggests there might have been some alteration at some time - it looks a bit insubstantial for Western work as well but sometimes the gang would use whatever was to hand to save time (or money). The triple pulley wheel units could be either LM or Western but look 'fairly Western' to me - I'm reasonably sure they are not LNWR pattern but haven't checked the books on that one. __________________________________________ Comment posted by Rail-Online on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:45 pm Thanks Mike, your knowledge is spectacular! Cheers Tony __________________________________________ Comment posted by RailwayDave on Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:16 pm Hi All, There was a book published by the Institution of Railway Signal Enginneers in 1969 called 'Mechanical Signalling Equipment, British Practice' by Donald L. Champion. You might be able to find it at swapmeets, s/h bookshops etc. It list all the distances and throws and pulls( and how to calculate them!) for mechanical signalling inc points, signals, slotting, locking and level crossings. I have a copy given to me just recently. In the series there are another 25 more booklets covering all aspects of mechanical signalling. These were priced at 2/6d and 3/6d (old money of course). __________________________________________ Comment posted by Captain Kernow on Tue May 26, 2009 3:32 pm 10800 wrote: Since there seems to be an interest in point rodding etc at the moment Thanks Rod, these photos are proving very useful at the moment! __________________________________________ Comment posted by SREW on Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:13 pm To answer Miss Prism, A Electrical Detector Photo! I shall see if I can find some other types in use. To answer Rail-Online the detector is a floating detector, its anchored to the nearest rail and floats with track movement, never had one on my patch so I'm unfamiliar with the concept. Cheers -------------------------------------------------------- The railway is standard and nothings the same! -------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________ Comment posted by Miss Prism on Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:17 pm Thankyou! __________________________________________ Comment posted by LNERGE on Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:08 am That's a rather nice detail picture, do you have any more from that location? The point in this picture is secured out of use by some rather securely bolts fishplates. __________________________________________ Comment posted by SREW on Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm LNEGE More detail photos, not my patch now. The points that are clamped are for the Down Avoider from Sleaford South which has been out of use since the 1980's. The fact it should of closed in 1982 with the Spalding-March & Lincoln Avoiders is remarkable! Up line gets occasional use from the extra's we get down the joint. __________________________________________ Comment posted by LNERGE on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:02 pm Hi SREW I think we've run into each other a few times along the Joint Line. I did some testing of block instruments along there during the blockade and fiddled around with token machines elsewhere.... __________________________________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2012 One point which does emerge from the detail which Rod has re-posted above is the question of Regional, and other differences - some of which have been noted in the various comments. While a lot of it is not readily distinguished in 4mm scale there were differences in oractice between BR Regions and even when the equipment of one is married with the practices of another it is immediately obvious (as in the SVR pictures at the top of Rod's post where there is a mixture of WR and LMR). The latter also shows the potentially misleading situation you can be in when using examples from 'preserved' railways. It all depends how detailed you want to get and whether or not you want to include the small - but still obvious - touches that can give 'identity'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I notice some photos have damaged links after all this time - if anyone wants to see any of the missing ones let me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I notice some photos have damaged links after all this time - if anyone wants to see any of the missing ones let me know. Rod, I know its a very long time since they were posted, but are these pictures posted anywhere else online? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Rod, I know its a very long time since they were posted, but are these pictures posted anywhere else online? http://www.norgrove.me.uk/resources/rodding.htm Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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