Julia Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 Having embarked (finally) on the construction of my H0e layout, I have a requirement for a few point motors to control some self built non latching points. Having had a play with tortoise motors I have found them to be bulky, and infuriating. On my old 00 layout I had peco solenoid point motors, which worked well, but the extra electronics required to control the frog polarity is such a pain, the included switching bits I found were not reliable enough. Ideally I would like a point motor which is dead easy to control. Simply giving a logic 1 to one or two pins to get it to change would be perfect, even better if there is some mechanism I can use for feedback of point position. Having had a look around the web I have come across the Cobalt point motors as fitting the bill, but before I shell out on one to test, I wondered if anyone had recommendations for alternatives to cobalts and tortoise motors? Thanks Julia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 The Traintronics TT300. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 No question. It has to be the Cobalt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 8, 2010 Author Share Posted December 8, 2010 The Traintronics TT300. Why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 Why? DC or DCC without further additions. Automatic frog switch plus signal change plus LED. Quiet and designed to fit into the OO track footprint. Will operate O, OO or N without adjustment. Smaller underboard clearance at 19mm. A stall current motor with completely linear throw. Manufactured in the EU and warranty here in the UK. Downside is the price unless you are DCC as it has a built in decoder capable of single accessory address or programmable up to 48 routes and 30 points to a single address. 12V DC through a simple on-on switch or DCC track power.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 8, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2010 Have a look at this www.minxmicrodrives.com (apologies if that won't work as a link but Safari seems to be acting funny this evening for some reason, anyway the URL is correct) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poindexter Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 Have a look at this www.minxmicrodrives.com Looks interesting. Thanks for posting. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Having had a play with tortoise motors I have found them to be bulky, and infuriating. No one is going to argue with the description of bulky. But what exactly do you find infuriating about them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 No one is going to argue with the description of bulky. But what exactly do you find infuriating about them? When I have operated modules with tortoise motors in the past it seems that they are set to be so so slow to the point that it takes several seconds to change a point, and if you have several points in a route you sit there for ages waiting for things to change. The owners tell you its more prototypical, however, I see this as an area for an allowance for the real world, I want to operate trains, not wait 3 weeks for the points to change. They also seem to be incredibly noisy... That said, whilst I find the "CLUNK" of the Peco point motors semi satisfying when setting points, they also have their draw backs and I would like to move on from them... J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2010 When I have operated modules with tortoise motors in the past it seems that they are set to be so so slow to the point that it takes several seconds to change a point, and if you have several points in a route you sit there for ages waiting for things to change. The owners tell you its more prototypical, however, I see this as an area for an allowance for the real world, I want to operate trains, not wait 3 weeks for the points to change. They also seem to be incredibly noisy... That said, whilst I find the "CLUNK" of the Peco point motors semi satisfying when setting points, they also have their draw backs and I would like to move on from them... J [/quote Have a look at the Minx website I suggest. The demo version worked well, at a sensible speed and struck me (and Two Tone Green of this parish who has also passed comment about it in the Reading 7mm show thread) as a good package overall with some cleverly thought out features. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 They also seem to be incredibly noisy... This is an indication that they have been incorrectly set up - extremely common. The slowness though, is seen by many as a "feature" rather than a "fault" and is something you are probably not going to get away from with most of the "slo-mo" point motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2010 What is the attraction of 'slowness' when it comes to points moving? The Indian Railways (!!) standard for a 'slow' machine is 5 seconds, it's 3 seconds for a fast machine; a new GE model takes 1.5 seconds, and for points worked by rodding the 'speed' can't be much different it being basically no longer than it takes to move the lever across the frame (which can be affected by all sorts of things I know, but can be very quick for points near the 'box). And as for properly adjusted handpoints we are again talking literally a matter if seconds with an experienced person on the job (and they needed to be quick when they had two cuts of wagons rolling towards them intended for different destinations) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2010 When I have operated modules with tortoise motors in the past it seems that they are set to be so so slow to the point that it takes several seconds to change a point, and if you have several points in a route you sit there for ages waiting for things to change. You can change more than one point at a time, unless you are emulating a solitary signalman in a box of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 You can change more than one point at a time, unless you are emulating a solitary signalman in a box of course. "But that's not prototypical!" is what some have said when I mentioned this, the other issue is that most people doing the points will sit there and change them in sequence from where the loco is to where the loco needs to be. It all comes down to a case of how the control setup is configured. Also as some people have pointed out, most slow point motors are actually considerably slower than the prototype. How fast are cobalt point motors? J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 To simplify a complex subject considerably: In colour light areas a whole route is normally requested as a single operation, so as Beast suggests all the points in the route will be called at the same time and move simultaneously. In semaphore areas, or the few colour light areas with non-route-based interlocking, points are moved one at a time as the signaller moves the levers. As per Stationmaster's post this can happen quite quickly, though if they are facing to passenger moves the signaller will probably work the facing point lock immediately after the point itself so there will be a longer gap before the next point is operated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 What is the attraction of 'slowness' when it comes to points moving? The Indian Railways (!!) standard for a 'slow' machine is 5 seconds, it's 3 seconds for a fast machine; a new GE model takes 1.5 seconds, and for points worked by rodding the 'speed' can't be much different it being basically no longer than it takes to move the lever across the frame (which can be affected by all sorts of things I know, but can be very quick for points near the 'box). On dodgy ground here working from memory, but i'd have put the throw of a point by a tortoise in OO/HO to be around 3 seconds, which then is about right for a motored point. The TT300 i'd say is maybe 2 or slightly under - perfect if you've just been resignalled? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2010 "But that's not prototypical!" is what some have said when I mentioned this, You need to ask those that know then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2010 On dodgy ground here working from memory, but i'd have put the throw of a point by a tortoise in OO/HO to be around 3 seconds, which then is about right for a motored point. The TT300 i'd say is maybe 2 or slightly under - perfect if you've just been resignalled? Is that 'scale seconds'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 It always makes me smile to myself when I read "slow motion motors are prototypical" and "indications sent back from point motor operated switches isnt correct" either. We are into model railways not real ones! No one should be killed or injured by a model loco being derailed in 2mm or 4mm scales! On the real UK railway points can move over at various times depending on what's operating them. Manually by the signaller pulling a lever, electrically via geared motor driven machines, hydraulically or pneumatically. The times of actual switch rails moving differs and depends what is powering the point and how well the slide chairs are greased, if greased chairs used. Manual points can take some 2 to 3 seconds to move over in real time, depending on distance from signal box and the effort put in by the signaller. Electrically powered points vary between about 1 to 3 plus seconds to actually move over. Point machine operated points taking the longest for all. The powered point machines using HPSS or HPSA systems move over in about a second or a little bit more. Hydraulic clamp locks move over is about 1.5 seconds and air operated can operate in less than a second depending on air pressure and any resistance placed on the switch rails by the slide chairs. Pneumatically operated points becoming almost extinct now. So in our model form of say 4mm to the foot or 2mm to the foot, even the Peco PL10/Seep PMx etc snap action solenoid is perhaps a bit on the slow side? As for point position detection, unless rods are attached to the actual switch rails and operate line side or below baseboard switches (micro switches) placed each side of the point position or two switches on one side with a long rod from the further away switch rail operating one switch, real point positioning is never going to be correct as per real railways! Using a simple micro switch operated by the moving points tie bar only proves the tie bar has moved correctly one way. It doesn't prove the point blades have moved fully over to either other side correctly, they could be standing open with indication saying they are correct. So, we often use point motor operated switches which prove the motor has thrown over, but not the actual points switch blades. But isn't this the easiest and probably the better way to indicate point position on our models? Using contacts the actual point operating switch or point lever where slow motion motors are used or other electronic point operating system where solenoids are used to provide indication only ever proves the point operating switch/lever itself has been moved. This is probably the most unrealistic and incorrect type of point position indication available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Is that 'scale seconds'? LOL - no it's proper 12"=1' scale seconds, I don't hold with this scaled time malarkey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Nobody has yet mentioned them but Model Aircraft servos can be used as point motors and are smaller and cheaper then the tortoise et al. You can use a driver board that allows you to set speed and throw individually or you can modify the Servo, removing its built in electronics so it just operates as a stall motor. Personally I go with the first option. Either way you need a microswitch or relay for frog switching or feedback. Per point you have, for the more expensive option, servo - £2.50 relay - £1.00 drive board - £1.50 Compare that to your Tortoise, Peco or Cobalt. See Servo point drivesNB The servo in the pics is a bigger one, I use the micro ones now as in above price list. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 Nobody has yet mentioned them but Model Aircraft servos can be used as point motors and are smaller and cheaper then the tortoise et al. You can use a driver board that allows you to set speed and throw individually or you can modify the Servo, removing its built in electronics so it just operates as a stall motor. Personally I go with the first option. Either way you need a microswitch or relay for frog switching or feedback. Per point you have, for the more expensive option, servo - £2.50 relay - £1.00 drive board - £1.50 Compare that to your Tortoise, Peco or Cobalt. See Servo point drivesNB The servo in the pics is a bigger one, I use the micro ones now as in above price list. Regards Keith That looks pretty good actually, and I have a spare servo knocking about. In the link you refer to using "Turnout operator unit", I tried googling but didn't find one of these. What exactly is it? J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nickey Line Posted December 10, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2010 Hi there, 'Turnout operating unit' or TOU is just a fancy name for a point motor... although it usually includes all switching devices too. Can also be just the mechanism to switch the turnout which in turn can be driven by a motor or by wire-in-tube, or a simple push-pull rod or indeed whatever you fancy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Yes, TOU (Turnout Operating Unit)in that context is the link that connects the motor to the point blades. The one in the video is an old Exactoscale one no longer available, for a new installation now I fix the Servo to the current Exactoscale tortoise mount, adds another pound to the cost but I use hand made track and some sort of TOU is needed whatever the motor. Using Peco track you can fit a wire to the Servo and drive direct to the tiebar through the usual hole in the board without needing a special TOU. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 More on servos on this thread amongst others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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