Woodbine Grove

[woodbine]

Hi, this is my first post since introducing myself back when the site was working! I?????m afraid that I haven?????t worked out the method of deciding where to post things yet, so please feel free to advise me on that, for a start. I have looked around on the site but haven?????t found any general advice on this.

 

 

 

The kids are leaving the nest one by one, so I am finally about to start building a layout after some years of building stock, so I will have questions about it that fall into different categories, for instance possibly baseboards, layout, track, signalling, electrics and so on.

 

 

 

My initial puzzle is whether to start a thread in ???Layouts???, or a blog (a new concept to me) and ask all the questions in one of those ( I have a bunch for them here to start with), as they come up, or whether to keep that thread just for progress and ask the questions individually in the relevant speciality sections, referring back to the layout thread for illustrations in order to avoid duplication.

 

 

 

Anyway, hopefully someone will fill me in quickly. I?????ll get straight on with describing my project and the first of the questions.

 

 

 

WOODBINE GROVE

 

4mm, EM gauge, 3m x 600mm, Lancashire and Yorkshire Rly, around 1900.

 

 

 

My idea is very closely based on that of Upton by David Griffin, which I saw at a show in Yorkshire last year.

 

Though he based it on the track plan of Upton-upon-Severn, it also is similar to that of L&YR Rose Grove (pre-1895 version) near Burnley, Lancashire, upon which I will base the main station building. Other bits will come from elsewhere.

 

 

 

Erected in the hallway with a fiddle yard at either end it offers potential for main line trains of all descriptions, and in the cellar/workroom, without the fiddle yard, it offers shunting.

 

 

 

It will need to be packed away and stacked sometimes, so it has to be lightweight.

 

 

 

Here is the proposed layout, which I sketched out fairly roughly in XTrkCAD.

 

 

edit:- 26/1/10, BTW, sub-heading should read - 3m x 600mm, not 1m x 600mm.

[woodbine]

Haha! I see a problem or two already.

The first time I attempted to post, last week, the UK2 gremlins ate all my hard work so this time I typed it in Word and copied it over, complete with peculiar punctuation and spacings!

Lesson learned I think.

The second issue is the sizing of the illustration. Can someone tell me the best way to post an illustration to avoid having to scroll across please? My illustration was 2048 x 400, jpeg.

[woodbine]

Referring to my first illustration I should add that the shed, goods and mineral roads all come off a tandem turnout, not two singles, but one wasn't available in XTrkCAD in P4/(EM)

 

Here is part of the same, but with some wiring details and things about which I have questions :-

 

 

I will use cab control. General comments and advice are very welcome.

 

My questions (tell me to boot them into other parts of the forum if I should, but I ask them here for now as they all directly refer to the same thread, in my head anyway) :-

 

Track -

1. Should this have catch points at the ends of the loop, or would the bay road and the shunting neck perform that function on the prototype?

 

Electrics -

2. Are the section breaks correct, and would there be any point in ever having three controllers, one for shunting and one each for the up and down lines?

3. Are the isolation breaks in the bay and shunting roads sufficient and in the right place?

4. Are the feeds in the right place and are there enough of them/

 

Uncouplers -

5. I have placed the (Sprat and Winkle or Alex Jackson, to be decided) magnetic couplers somewhat randomly. Do I need that many? Where should they be?

 

Signalling -

6. I have put the signal box where it is for scenic purposes. I know it would usually be on the other side of the tracks but I need the space for other things. Would it ever be permitted to be where I put it?

7. Would all the points on the layout at this period be worked from the SB or would some be worked from ground frames, and if so, which ones would be which?

8. What signals would be where?

9. What route would the point rodding take?

 

I realise that's a hilariously large number of questions for one post and will understand if I get my knuckles rapped a bit. Thank you in advance for your patience and any replies.

[Kenton]

Haha! I see a problem or two already.

The first time I attempted to post, last week, the UK2 gremlins ate all my hard work so this time I typed it in Word and copied it over, complete with peculiar punctuation and spacings!

Lesson learned I think.

The second issue is the sizing of the illustration. Can someone tell me the best way to post an illustration to avoid having to scroll across please? My illustration was 2048 x 400, jpeg.

Punctuation problems - don't use word, use notepad - but there exists some character gremlins at the moment hopefully to be fixed once the new server is up and running.

Image size - don't worry too much about the scroll problem it is far better than just posting a tiny thumbnail image that no one can see with an offsite link that some can't follow. The typical size is 640px wide but don't make that limit you too much.

 

An interesting track plan - I know little (read nothing) of L&Y practice, however I see 2 double slips in use - I would be uncomfortable about that with other layouts/areas.

 

Regarding S&W uncoupling:

It depends how proficient you are with them - but they are delayed actions so you do not need one in every siding.

However if you are going to trap/run round a loco in a siding/platform then you will require a magnet to uncouple at the loco. That preferably would be an electromagnet (though that also applies to them all - depends on how steady the running is.

 

Regarding DC wiring:

Cab control - implies more than one operator with DC - is that likely? It will complicate wiring a bit.

Section breaks - I am a firm believer in the bullet proof approach - so I would isolate every point frog and supply every point stock rail (ie. not depend on the point to follow through to the next point or siding. Then every track becomes a section which requires simply connecting/switching or sectioning.

I think in your plan you will need to isolate the other double slip as well, otherwise it looks ok to me.

[woodbine]

Thanks for your comments Kenton.

 

What looks like a double slip at the crossover at the platform end is in fact a single slip. It shows up much better as this in the first illustration and doesn't show at all in the second!

 

This was not a feature of the real Rose Grove anyway, which had more length to it and two turnouts instead of the double slip for the shunting neck, for example; but it saves space and allows me to do some movements without leaving the scene, as it would all have happened well off-stage in the real thing.

It allows reversal of a 90cm train into the loop from the Down line. The loco can then uncouple and leave the wagons in the loop (:icon_idea:so I need an uncoupler at the ends of the loop) and run round the train via the Up line to shunt them about.

 

I meant 'electro'magnetic uncouplers, oops, BTW. Would one at each of the exits from the double slip and another at the exit from the loop to the single slip be enough, or should I be a little rash and put some on the Up and down lines too? Where?

 

I don't mind building in the wiring for two cab controllers; I just wondered if anyone would say it was the obvious thing to allow for three. Obviously not!

 

Regarding the feeds and sections and stuff, I shall have to go away and digest what you suggest as I think RMweb is closing down on me again.

[Kenton]

I'm afraid the best test for uncoupler positioning is to put a paper plan on the floor and play train movements. If you test all the expected movements out this way you soon realise where you will need an uncoupler. It sounds a bit unscientific, but you soon realise where you have left one out. You are right about the loop - I missed that potential operation.

Although the S&W are perfectly capable of delayed action I would be cautious about removing the magnets from the sidings. In theory, you could save one magnet by putting one before the points but the crossing on the slip might just be too wobbly and you would end up recoupled.

[woodbine]

Thank you Kenton for your replies, which have been very helpful.

I have now asked some of the questions again on other parts of the forum in the hope of attracting more response on the unresolved subjects.

[Kenton]

Ok, regarding the question on catch points - with the caveat I know nothing of L&Y practice in 1900.

Think:

1. They are additional cost (to the company not the model)

2. In 1900 safety rules were almost unheard of (probably improved by LNWR days)

3. Usually used to protect a main line, think through what happens in each case with a runaway. In both the cases you have a facing crossing. These points would be interlocked so that an open point would not face a closed point in the crossing.

[The Stationmaster]

Ok, regarding the question on catch points - with the caveat I know nothing of L&Y practice in 1900.

Think:

1. They are additional cost (to the company not the model)

2. In 1900 safety rules were almost unheard of (probably improved by LNWR days)

3. Usually used to protect a main line, think through what happens in each case with a runaway. In both the cases you have a facing crossing. These points would be interlocked so that an open point would not face a closed point in the crossing.

 

The principle of trap points (at that time often referred to as 'safety points') was well established by 1900 and was included in the RCH standard Rules (e.g Rule 98). However the old practice of 'safety blocks' was also used - as far as I can tell - to protect the exit from some sidings but then that's no different from the 1970s (and possibly later ).

[flyingsignalman]

If the Bay is to be used for passenger traffic there will need to be trap points in the shunt neck and in the connection to the goods yard.

[woodbine]

I've tried asking questions in other threads, and got replies too, but I'm going dizzy keeping track of them all (not really).

So I've gathered up the links to them here, and all my further posts will be here, and I hope that goes for replies to those previous posts too, if that makes sense. I would like to alter the thread sub heading to "Ongoing help required" or something, but I am not able to edit the headers.

 

Electrifying question

 

Catch points and stuff

 

Signals

[Kenton]

I would like to alter the thread sub heading to "Ongoing help required" or something, but I am not able to edit the headers.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/7396-sub-messages-on-threads/

[woodbine]

Done. Thanks once again.

[woodbine]

Here's a revised scheme for the electric breaks and isolating sections, and the electromagnetic uncouplers.

The baseboard joins are the black vertical lines.

The bay is not a passenger bay.

If someone could cast their eye over it I would be most grateful.

[The Stationmaster]

Woodbine - what happens at the left hand end, will it eventually 'go somewhere'. The main reason for asking - apart from it being inoperable if it doesn't 'go somewhere' is in relation to the signalling.

 

(and in that connection making the bay a siding makes things a lot simpler B)

[StaffsOatcake]

Knowing little about L&yY signalling practices I may not be much use. Here are my suggestions. You shouldn't need catch points, as a set of blades (nearest the down line~) on the double switch can be operated to provide protection into what I assume is a head shunt to protect the down line. this would mean that anything ran away towards the slip would end up in the head shunt and the switch leading to the signal slip from the yard can be left in the reverse position again providing protection to the up and down lines so anything running away from the head shunt ends up in the bay * as per kentons reply) . The signal box would provide control over both of these. In theory both lines could be protected by yellow disk signals which allows the driver to pass when in the on position and when off the driver would know that the route has changed to access the main running lines

 

As to regards wiring convert it to DCC and do away with isolating sections.

[woodbine]

Woodbine - what happens at the left hand end, will it eventually 'go somewhere'.

 

Sorry, it's all in my head but it's not at all clear from my previous posts, is it?

The idea is that it's a small through station (can't fit a big one!) on a double track main line, with a so far fictional fiddle yard at each ends, if I live that long and find somewhere long enough to erect it.

In the meantime I can strut a wide selection of rolling stock around, using the loop for running round a small goods train without falling off the ends. Exeunt stage left and right will be theoretical.

 

In theory both lines could be protected by yellow disk signals which allows the driver to pass when in the on position and when off the driver would know that the route has changed to access the main running lines

 

I can't work out what the L&Y in 1900 used in this situation, for accessing the double slip from the siding to either use the shunting neck or enter the Up line.

Also, what about reversing from the Down and across to the Up, and also from the Down straight across into the loop, what sort of signals control the crossover?

I guess there is some online tutorial for all this which I ought to study before asking all this, so a point in the right direction would be OK.

[Kenton]

As to regards wiring convert it to DCC and do away with isolating sections.

If you look carefully at them you will see that most are just frog isolations (something that MUST also be done for DCC) Infact looking closer because this is "simple" DC wiring you would need even more isolation - on EVERY frog ... so that you can leave a loco in a section with its sound blaring away and lights blinking.

 

The DC wiring is not as I would do it - it is simplified - but looks as if it will work.

 

Anyway - I think DCC was ruled out earlier.

[The Stationmaster]

Knowing little about L&yY signalling practices I may not be much use. Here are my suggestions. You shouldn't need catch points, as a set of blades (nearest the down line~) on the double switch can be operated to provide protection into what I assume is a head shunt to protect the down line. this would mean that anything ran away towards the slip would end up in the head shunt and the switch leading to the signal slip from the yard can be left in the reverse position again providing protection to the up and down lines so anything running away from the head shunt ends up in the bay * as per kentons reply) . The signal box would provide control over both of these. In theory both lines could be protected by yellow disk signals which allows the driver to pass when in the on position and when off the driver would know that the route has changed to access the main running lines

 

 

Hmm. I didn't think Dr Who was in charge of signalling on the L&Y (unless he has changed his name from Byles ).

 

'Yellow disk (sic) signals' did not exist in 1900 on any British railway I have yet run to earth although I would be more than interested to learn about one if they did. They are a child of the late 1920s/early'30s (except on the GWR - which never had such things) and in my view some evidence exists to suggest that they were a way round rationalising some of the weird and wonderful collection of subsidiary and shunting signals that passed into the control of the Grouped Railways.

[The Stationmaster]

 

The idea is that it's a small through station (can't fit a big one!) on a double track main line, with a so far fictional fiddle yard at each ends, if I live that long and find somewhere long enough to erect it.

In the meantime I can strut a wide selection of rolling stock around, using the loop for running round a small goods train without falling off the ends. Exeunt stage left and right will be theoretical.

 

I thought it might be something like that - and now I know B)

 

 

I can't work out what the L&Y in 1900 used in this situation, for accessing the double slip from the siding to either use the shunting neck or enter the Up line.

Also, what about reversing from the Down and across to the Up, and also from the Down straight across into the loop, what sort of signals control the crossover?

I guess there is some online tutorial for all this which I ought to study before asking all this, so a point in the right direction would be OK.

 

 

Right, this bit's easy peasy, at first . The L&Y was a user of miniature semaphores elevated on signal posts and also used ground signals - you will, I hope, have come across both in the sources you've come up with so far. What I am not absolutely clear on is the dividing line which decided between the use of one or the other and you either need an expert on L&Y signalling (there must be one in the L&Y Society?) and/or a lot of study of pics to give you a more concrete idea on that.

 

But (from my partially ignorant position) I would suggest elevated minature arms reading out over the double slip - signal with two arms, one to go to the headshunt, the other to go out onto the main. Similarly a signal with miniature arms to come back off the running line through the crossover by the platform (two arms, one to go 'inside' by the bay and the other readubng to the other running round). A ground disc reading the opposite way through that crossover between the running lines (i.e. through the end formed by the single slip).

 

An elevated miniature arm signal - again two arms, reading out where you can either go bay or onto the running line. A disc out of the bay.

 

The only one where I am really doubtful is for backing onto the goods yard over the double slip but I think it would again be a signal with two elevated miniature arms.

 

I hope that makes sense and I also hope it's right (or at least rightish) but I really would suggest you go delving through the L&Y Society looking for some proper expert knowledge on the Company's signalling (and then you can come back and tear my efforts to shreds . Hope that has helped a bit.

[woodbine]

If you look carefully at them you will see that most are just frog isolations (something that MUST also be done for DCC) Infact looking closer because this is "simple" DC wiring you would need even more isolation - on EVERY frog ... so that you can leave a loco in a section with its sound blaring away and lights blinking.

 

The DC wiring is not as I would do it - it is simplified - but looks as if it will work.

 

This is sounding like nitty gritty, and is why I need the advice, as I don't quite follow you. You said in a previous post:-

 

so I would isolate every point frog and supply every point stock rail (ie. not depend on the point to follow through to the next point or siding. Then every track becomes a section which requires simply connecting/switching or sectioning.

I think in your plan you will need to isolate the other double slip as well, otherwise it looks ok to me.

 

Of course, with the following I am not disagreeing with you or arguing that I am right, I am describing how I see it from my position as an inexperienced newbie so that you can show me where I am wrong and what you would do instead. For instance what do you mean by 'even more isolation' and what would be its purpose?

 

The DC wiring in the diagram is simplified, in that it's only intended to illustrate where sections and isolating sections begin and end, and in practice there will be more wiring on the ground (under;)), feeding beyond each turnout to the next stock rail, and across baseboards etc., and that every frog needs insulating from the rail beyond to avoid backfeed, and extra unswitched feeds need to go beyond the TO's.

 

I know I haven't put in the details of how the slips and TO's are wired.

 

The Up and Down lines can each be assigned as a separate section, and the sidings as a whole to another. There are two isolated siding ends for holding extra locos.

There can hardly arise a situation where there are a further two locos shunting the sidings at once, so why/where would I need more switched isolation?

 

Why would it matter if all the sidings were live if there's only one loco on the loose in there anyway?

 

Here's another revision, in more detail; is this what you mean, or something like? I hadn't thought of the yellow feeds as needing to be switched other than with the section. Do you think every feed needs switching and if so, why?

[woodbine]

Right, this bit's easy peasy, at first

 

Maybe it is, I'll let you know when my head stops hurting:lol:.

 

However, I think I'm getting the hang of where the gaps in my knowledge are thanks to your explanation.

I might have to get back to you if I don't understand some of it.

 

I'll try and work out what it amounts to in relation to what you said, and then ask the hopefully relevant questions of the L&Y Soc, of which I'm a member.