Brassey

The footplate and splashers remained the same, though the earliest versions had a curved front step, the rest of it changed. The Finney kit provides for any loco after 1900 so does not allow for prior versions such as the short smokebox Mikkel is building here, nor the S2 boiler with the smaller dome on the front ring. The Finney kit has 3 fireboxes, 4 sets of cabsides, 3 cab fronts, 3 roofs, 2 footplates, riveted and plain smokebox wrappers and splashers etc. There's enough to make 2 locos which I hope to demonstrate on my own thread but has been documented in an MRJ.

This thread records the progress on the building of the motive power for my layout on the North to West line. This was LNWR/GWR joint and therefore I'm building stock for both. I thought I would start with Great Western Dean Goods. These have been on my workbench for some time. First on the workbench is 2478 which was built in 1896 with an S4 boiler and did not receive a belpaire B4 until the grouping (5/1924). It had the wide footplate and plain rods. In 1912 it was shedded at Worcester. Based on the Mallard kit etches, this one has a High Level DG chassis in P4 with dummy valve gear. As can be seen from the pic, the centre splashers are slightly narrower and butt up against the inner splashers on the chassis. (The Comet chassis had these too but did the real thing have inner splashers?) I'll fit the front splashers once I have sorted the smokebox as they butt up to this as can been seen from images of the preserved DG.

Miss P, The source of my previous comment was a discussion in the Model Railway press in the late 70s/early 80s about the wheels on the 517 class and the conclusion was that the crankpins were "on spoke" as that was the standard for locos built at Wolverhampton. I assumed that the people writing at the time had more contemporary knowledge and I had no reason to doubt it. I believe crankpin between the spokes did exist long before the Collett period as shown in this image. (I always thought that was the GWR standard) Ultrascale wheels supplied for the Finney DG are between the spoke as per Mike Sharman's wheel spec for modellers book. However, now that I've looked, all the DG in Craig's photos seem to have the crankpin on spoke!

On Craig's latest photos on, 2-4-2 3617 has the crank pin on the spoke. This wheel format was a Wolverhampton practice which hints to me that these locos may well have been maintained at Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton is known to have followed different painting schemes and maybe they did not line goods engines. All the locos have full tenders showing they are about to start work. Although clean, I would not describe them as gleaming but the lining should show before a days work. Contrarily, photos of LNWR locos on shed, even goods engines, were always gleaming. Maybe it was the blackberry black but contemporary accounts suggest that the GWR was not as fastidious at cleaning! That went for coaching stock too. Jol: LNWR locos went through far less changes than GWR ones which is why a lot of this details has escaped the books whereas the LNWR ones are more comprehensive because there is less of it. Note for example the different wheel practices between Swindon and Wolverhampton and that applied to boilers too!

Mikkel, some of the photos of the preserved DG on the Oxford threads show that the splashers were not all the same width

Mikkel If you would be happy with the GREAT WESTERN on the tender, then 2458 as pictured fits the bill. What is also distinctive here, in these images, is the brass ring between the boiler and smokebox. Peter

According to RCTS, the last 10 were reported to have been built with extended smokeboxes but they also had fluted rods!

This combination depicted in 2487 would appear to be wrong. It is built from a 7mm Finney kit that does not provide for the narrow smokebox (nor the S2 boiler). In other respects it resembles the photo in as-built condition. I would have thought it most likely that smokeboxes were changed at the same time as boilers

That is possibly because the centre lamp over the buffer beam was not introduced until later possibly 1903 probably to do with the RCH standards introduced then.

I can't recall the details but I think there was a universal change from sockets to lamp irons in the early 1900's. (The GWR were unique in having the lamps attach at the side). The central hand rail knob on the smoke box also combined a lamp socket which was common with other railways. I think such a thing is available commercially but as it is not me era I don't recall the manufacturer. The different lamp configurations had various meanings on different railways and lines at different times but I think a light colour lamp was there to replicate a white light shown forward at night. The lamp lenses also changed colour to avoid confusion with signal lamps. Someone with more knowledge will probably be able to elaborate on all this. My line modelled is joint LNWR/GWR which had its own oddities for obvious reasons

Hi Mikkel Sorry came to this late but those kits that have straight round top options have the boiler and firebox as one piece. There is no obvious join between the two. Would it be easier to roll this as one piece and re shape the firebox? Peter

The MF kit has 3 different cab fronts but whether that covers all variants I am unsure

Did the earlier batches not also have a different shape front step and more of a sweep to the cab sides. I mention this as the owner of a Martin Finney kit which provides for these variants. (edit: oops my mistake, on checking the changes happened with engine number 2380 so my comments do not apply to 2390). edit: also the Gibson 517 dome may prove too small for a Dean Goods; I currently have a 517 in the works as well as Dean Goods

Are they not front sand boxes on the Dean Goods? The tool boxes are on the tender.

In my experience, there is not a big enough gap in the footplate to allow for a 14mm motor to fit. There are delicate location etchings for the firebox that make it hard to remove metal in the area. The largest is a 12mm. The proposal on the Brassmasters site is a 1220 IIRC. I have manage to get a 1224 to fit in an underslung fashion using the RoadRunner compact.

A lot of the bg kits are now available from the Broad Gauge Society via their website

In the OP there are 4 axles of A. Gibson wheels

Again according to Russell, in October 1912 the Great Western magazine reported that gold leaf was again used instead of yellow ochre for lining and the lettering on coach roof boards was changed to red lettering on black. In comparison these are fairly minor changes, but no mention at all was made of any overall coach colour change throughout 1912! I have an original copy of the April 1912 issue and there is nothing. This is compared to the "furore" that appeared apparently following the 1908 change. Coach, I appreciate the received wisdom and a lot that has been published but so far no primary sources have been found of this change. It has been suggested that the only way to check is to go through all the board minutes at the national archives in Kew. We await for someone to do this. Why I am keen on finding the answer, as can been seen on my footnote, is the period I model is 1912. I am currently building GWR 517 class number 848 which was shedded at Kidderminster in the Summer of 1912. It was one of the auto-fitted locos and one of the few that were painted to match the rolling stock; but what colour do I paint it. I have never found the concept of the overall brown livery very attractive so it is likely to be Crimson Lake but I would like proof that it would have been that colour.

Not to mention the fading that might have occurred over the past 100 years...

According to Russell quoting the Locomotive Magazine Vol. 9, the 1903 trial was "dark lake" as an experiment "to test the advisability of changing the standard scheme" Now if this colour was the existing brown, why would they need to test it as there were already "brown vehicles" for which they knew the weathering and cleaning aspects already. Was it a totally different painting technique that was being tested to achieve the red colour which would have been quite difficult to create in those days. Eitherway was the 1908 brown the same as the existing coach brown?

Coach, the black ends were introduced with the 1908 "brown" livery change, according to Great Western Way, so would have applied to both schemes

OK, this was the first illustration I could freely find on the internet but there are others showing similar livery. Does anyone know of a contemporary illustration of an "all brown" carriage; I don't recall seeing one?

This contemporary illustration shows a livery that is more red than brown and is dated 1910 and predates the implied change by 2 years http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-great-western-railway-corridor-carriage-date-circa-1910-105357964.html

There has been a discussion on another forum that there was not a change of colour in 1912 rather the 1908 change was to lake but the varnish used at the time rendered the colour more brown. Various accounts describe the earlier colour as "chocolate lake". As the GWR improved their understanding of how to achieve the lake, the shade became more red overtime and thus "crimson lake". This theory is supported by the fact that there are no contemporary reports of the 1912 change as detailed in Great Western Way

Thanks for reintroducing the Dean 10' bogies. These are the only source of this size.