thegreenhowards

Darryl, That's very welcome news. Is it possible to get access to these photographs through the LNER society or directly? Andy

It’s a while since I posted on here, mainly because I’ve been concentrating on my layout. However over the last few days I’ve been trying to sort out my Pullman rakes and I’ve decided I need some different cars. As has been aired elsewhere most of the ECML cars were from the 1928 all steel batch as represented recently by Hornby. However about 1/3 were of the earlier wooden type with under frame angle iron. These were the earlier Hornby super detail type, but while Hornby did five different cars there were, in practice, numerous differences between them. I wanted to build one of the second class Kitchen cars, nos 105/6/7 which were East Coast regulars in the 1950s. These were originally First Class kitchen cars built in 1927 and were converted in 1946. They were notably different to the regular K type wooden vehicles modelled by Hornby with an extra oval window and other windows in different places. I decided to start with an older Hornby (pre superdetail) pantry car and had to cut the side up to rearrange some of the windows. the choice of the older car was partly because it seemed the closest match window wise, partly because there’s not much difference between them apart from the under frame and partly because it was cheap so less of an issue if I mess it up! Here’s the progress to date The top side is the one I’ve been working on - you can see the joins. The middle one is the same model unaltered, and the bottom one is a Hornby superdetail kitchen second, so you can see the difference. My reference pictures are in Ford Pullman Profile No 2 pages 137-141. Still to do are filling and repainting the joins and sorting roof and chassis. I’d welcome any comments on whether I’ve missed a glaring problem with this route. Also does anyone know the best match for Hornby Pullman cream. I’ve tried Humbrol RC416, but it’s too lemony. Andy

Moving on round the layout we come to the first set of trailing slips. These take trains from the station area out onto the down fast or into the headshunt for goods sidings on the down side. Here we have K1 62059 (Hornby) on a rake of oil tanks crossing from the station area (where it has recessed for a crew change) back onto the down fast to continue it's journey northbound. The first point and diamond crossing have been slightly curved to fit in with the sweep round the bend. I've skipped past the area on the right of the K1 which will be an industrial site, but is in the early stages of development. Moving on round the layout the corner is occupied by a gas works Here we have J50, 68989 (Lima body with Jackson Evans detailing and /4 conversion kit on a Bachmann Pannier chassis) on my equivalent of the Barnet gas train. This area of the layout is relatively complete, but I still need to add some pipes to the Gas holder complex. Finally for today we have a general view over the station goods yard with a DJ Models austerity in the foreground.

Hi Les, Thanks for your comment. I held off replying hoping that someone more knowledgeable about signalling would step in. My understanding is that the finial was the mark of the signal manufacturer and not unique to the Southern. There was certainly a similar finial on the one LNER signal kit from MSE that I have built (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135510-coulsdon-works/&do=findComment&comment=3663331). But I stand to be corrected as I find signalling a rather confusing subject! Andy

This morning I will describe the first section in the main scenic room. This emerges from a tunnel immediately the other side of the dividing wall and gently curves round the water tank. At this stage the two track section becomes four with two headshunts leading back to the tunnel mouth. A2/2 60506 Wolf of Badenoch (DJH) leaving the tunnel mouth and about to cross to the slow line. The point entering the two track section on the up line (immediately in front of the 'Wolf') is Peco large radius, but has been treated to the 'Graham Nicholas' manipulation to make it a sort of off-set 'Y' point. This keeps the radius on the mainline at c.75". I would really like a much larger radius point and have been tempted to replace it with the code 83 version, but that would have sleeper spacing issues and I'm not sure it would join to my code 100 track. The signal is standard Hornby and is manual. I have just ordered a Heathcote semaphore bouncing servo controller, so it will shortly be automated. In the long term, I anticipate a GNR style gantry over the four tracks at this point built from the MSE kit, but I need to build up my confidence with MSE kits gradually - so far I've just built a single arm kit. The farm scene behind is a another 'father and daughter' creation which fills the corner nicely. This photo is looking the other way. V2, 60850 (Bachmann heavily weathered) heads the down Aberdeen blue spot fish empties round the curve. On the left we have goods holding sidings (in practice a place to dump wagons that I'm not using!) and in the background my industrial area - more of that tomorrow.

I think the problem may be that you have too many books rather than too few! To be fair, I often have the same problem with photos in books, but those three Carter Backtrack articles on LNER catering vehicles are in the ready reference pile which never gets put away.

I'm no signalling expert. My understanding is that the white diamond indicates that the signal is associated with a track circuit, so I would have thought that that could be true next to a signal box, but I'm willing to be corrected.

Today's tour round the layout is the section leading from 'Welwyn' viaduct to the road bridge where the layout dives through a wall and into the other room in the loft. The curve is forced by circumnavigating the water tanks, but I've kept it fairly gradual. Here we have a Baby Deltic on a typical Cambridge semi fast set headed by a Kirk Gresley BSK(3) passing the tail end of an up fish train. The signals are the Dapol type. They are strictly southern in outline and I'm sure that a signal guru will tell me off, but they look like LNER lattice signals to me. They work automatically fired by a Heathcote electronics infra red 'Dapol Signal Sequence' which works very reliably and ensures that the signals go back to danger which is something that I never remember to do! The bridge and retaining wall are from Scalescenes and the 'green' scenic work is again done with my daughter, Ellen. These photos were taken on my iPhone rather than my expensive NikonD80 but I think they’re better. Any views? Andy

Andrew, That's really useful - many thanks. I'm keen to build one, but have no diagram or picture to work of. I've had a look at Robert's Fickr pages and can't see anything. Your observations on E9065E are interesting. Carter (Backtrack Nov 96) suggests that of the three conversions, one went on the South Yorkshireman (as you say), one to the GE and one to the GN to work the Cleethorpes King's Cross train that both Gilbert (PN) and I would like to model correctly. Longworth suggests that E9065E went to the LM in 1953 which doesn't quite fit with your information, but then Longworth isn't always right! E9065 E was also renumbered from E1225E (or Clive thinks to) at some stage. If anyone has any picture I could work of, I'd be most grateful. Andy

Clive, You're most welcome to take up as much space as you like on this sort of question. This sort of debate is one of the reasons I love RMWeb and as Gilbert will testify, I often take up space on his thread asking just such a question. Coming back to the RKB on the 1845 KGX-Cleethorpes. It was a 1953 conversion of a D.16 RT. To quote Carter in Backtrack Nov 1996, "The Eastern Region selected three LNER third class restaurant cars built in 1924 for conversion to RKB (table 3). remodelling was extensive. Most of the interior was given over to the kitchen but left room for four seats...………….Following conversion in 1953 the cars were allocated to the GE, GN and GC lines...………..One the GN the RKB ran in the 6.20am Cleethorpes to King's Cross, returning at 6.18pm." The 6.18pm ran later by 1958 and this was definitely the vehicle. The numbers were E9063E/ E9064E and E9065E however, I do not know which of the three conversions was allocated to the GN. I have the diagram for D.16, but not for the rebuild which I imagine had much more panelling and less windows. As I said earlier, if I had the diagram I think it would be an easy cut and shut from Kirk bits. Andy

Thanks, I'll download it and give it a try. Then I might fire some questions over if that's OK. But more than 5 mins per photo and I'd lose patience so don't expert the earth!

I'm sure you can find an excuse for the GN car - a d.168 must have been in works. I would start building the RKB tomorrow if I could get a diagram or a picture. I have load of Kirk buffet sides (and a few others) lying around and I'm sure it would be possible to cut and shut. I just have no idea what it looked like. The road adjoining the cassettes and kick backs easily takes 12 mark 1s between the points and I can add a loco at the up end of the train (over the kick back point) once it's put together before fouling the point onto the next road. So it's perfect for making up trains as you suggest. I see them mainly being made up from the kick back roads with a few less used items kept in cassettes. But I haven't used it in anger yet, so experience may change my mind.

Believe it or not that is a white background....or at least off-white as it hasn't been painted for 20+ years. It's just the light and the angle of the roof which renders it grey on the photo. Tony Teague did try to teach me photoshopping, but it seemed an awful faff. Maybe once I got used to it, I would find it easier. What's the best free software to experiment with?

Thanks for that reassurance. The viaduct is definitely a 'scale over finesse' item, and it grabs the attention on the layout. The surrounding scenery was done with my 13 year old daughter, Ellen, who loves the creative side ….and the mess that goes with it! It's been fun having something to do together and keeping her involved in the railway.

After an exhausting but enjoyable day at Warley yesterday, it's time for the next instalment on Gresley Junction. I'm going to start with the viaduct section and then work round the layout in the up direction (i.e. anticlockwise). Here is A3 60110 'Robert the Devil' on the up morning Talisman as it was in the Summer of 1957 (before extension to Perth and renaming as the Fair Maid at which stage it got a separate set of stock from the afternoon train). A view of the full length of the viaduct. Close up of the far end. A view through the arches. I'm afraid that I find that life's too short for photoshopping, so what you see is the raw layout, warts and all, with my pictures. As such these pictures highlight the need for a backscene. I think I can sort the sky behind the viaduct by using plain wallpaper up the loft wall and painting it blue. However, the final picture shows how abruptly the river stops. I really need to paint a disappearing river into the backscene, but my skills aren't up to it, so I'm still considering what to do there. It's not seen from normal viewing angles, so not a huge problem. The viaduct is loosely based on Welwyn (aka Digswell) viaduct, although is less than have the size. The steep sides, flat bottom and small river are certainly similar to the valley of the Mimram which runs under Welwyn. I looked at lots of photos before I built it and convinced myself that the brick was yellow as were many early GNR structures. However, a site visit since then, reveals that in fact its mainly red brick with some blue brick, possibly as repairs. I used the Scalescenes kit and each arch had to be printed, glued onto card and put together. As it took a year to build (on and off), I'm not revisiting it! I will weather it in due course and hope to reduce the 'in your face' yellowness of the bricks. That will also give me the chance to repair the defects that I never normally notice, but which the camera has highlighted. Andy

Quite right Clive. I was trying not to use jargon, but it was a characterful name. I’m off to Warley tomorrow, so next update on Monday, when I will start moving found the layout to show how it’s all looking. Andy

Bill, It was a pleasure showing you the layout and I need an excuse to sit down and enjoy it, so thanks for providing the incentive. I’ve started a thread on the layout since your visit so if anyone’s interested please have a look. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149386-gresley-junction/&tab=comments#comment-3741677 Andy

Having introduced the layout yesterday, I will go through the different parts over the next few days. Today, I’m going to start with the fiddle yard. That may be slightly unconventional, but it’s the engine room of the whole layout with all the sexy bits (the trains!); and It’s where I’ve been working for the last few weeks so it’s fresh in my mind. My old fiddle yard had three problems. Firstly, I had run out of space for storage (a familiar problem I’m sure) so several longer rakes were in cardboard boxes and others were in a cassette system; Secondly, it had push back sidings with complete trains on a curve and I could rarely get the train out without some form of derailment; and Thirdly I only had one reversible siding in the middle and that was only reversible in one direction. As I got round to planning a timetable/ schedule I realised that a number. Of trains needed to run both ways (Talisman, Yorkshire Pullman etc.). So after dithering for several months, I ripped up the ‘up’ (inner) half of the fiddle hard about three weeks ago including the push back sidings, and relaid it with track spacing at 45mm instead of 50mm and medium radius points instead of large in places. This allowed me to get in one extra road. I also replaced the entrance and exit arrangement for the first three roads so they are accessed (from the station side) via a double slip (brave or foolhardy possibly) and they exit at the other end onto the outer circuit and return to the inner if required via a crossover. I was against a deadline as Bill Bishop of this parish visited last Thursday, but I had it all finished by last weekend and persuaded my son to run through the sequence with me to test it all. It seemed to work well with only a couple of derailments which I have subsequently fixed. If Bill reads this, maybe he could testify, but I think it behaved quite well when he was here (although there were some problems caused by my incompetence!). So here is the new fiddle yard before it was fully restocked. Locking towards the entrance from the station with the double slip evident. Looking towards the far end from the station as the tracks curve round The exit at the far end of the fiddle yard with the crossover from outer (down) to inner (up) in the right foreground. There are still push backs on for the down slow (the four tracks to the right of the crossover) but these are entered on the straight and have caused less problems. And here it is fully stocked. I have a cassette system (based on Peterborough North - thanks Gilbert) which allows smaller trains to be stored off layout. I built this myself and my carpentry was not it’s not as smooth as it should be, so the storage shelves will need rebuilding at some stage. But the cassettes work well and allow shorter trains to be fed into the schedule. With the new fiddle yard I may use it to store parts of mainline trains as well but will need to build some more cassettes first. He is a cassette with my rubbish train, modelled on the Ashburton Grove rubbish train which used the bogie sulphate wagons as produced by Parkside Dundas. Andy

Gresley and Thompson catering cars are so elegant that one can never have enough! I accept that you may have more than you strictly need for some trains. However, correct if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that you’re missing a few of the more esoteric cars such as D.258 and D.275 buffets, and that strange one with a few seats that ran in one of the Cleethorpes trains. Personally speaking, I find catering cars like Pacifics - I love them, so I’ll have more than I strictly need. Andy

Thanks Matthew, I’m familiar with all those threads, and they’ve all been good inspiration especially Peterborough North which I’ve been lucky enough to visit a couple of times. Grantham is outside my timeframe but I’m a big fan. Worth the admission price alone when it’s on show Andy

Thanks Gordon, Gilbert put me onto your thread and I’ve enjoyed following your trials and tribulations. Andy

Hi Gilbert, Yes the fiddle yard is a bit complex. I’ve just spent the last couple of weeks relaying half of it to squeeze in an extra track and make the middle three tracks reversible. It’s worked really well and I now have 16 tracks including 2 half length ones at the far side and some kick backs. Several of them can take two trains, so lots of storage, (but still not enough!). I intend to work round the layout over the next few days starting with the fiddle yard as that is the engine room. The nearest track is a line for mixing and matching mark 1s and catering cores to make up the myriad of second tier trains that formed most of the ECML service. This was inspired by your experience on Peterborough North, so thanks for that. In fact, quite a bit will be familiar as PN and Little Bytham are my main guiding light for this layout. i look forward to your comments. All the best Andy

I'm starting this topic to show progress on my '00' layout, Gresley Junction, and to allow me to post photos of completed trains as and when they are finished. So here is a starter for 10. The layout measure approximately 30’ x 10’ and is in the loft of my house. This has meant certain compromises such as curving round the water tanks and chimney…but there are always compromises and I think it’s a pretty good location. My key requirements were: 1. A showcase for my model building; 2. Main line location capable of running full length prototypical ECML 1950s trains; 3. Plenty of storage; 4. Minimum radius curves of 36”, but allowing Peco curved points so short stretches of 30”; 5. Larger radius curves in scenic area wherever possible with tighter curves disguised by scenery where possible. 6. Some "railway in countryside" particularly to allow my daughter to get involved with scenic modelling which she enjoys; 7. DCC operated with some sound locos - test both DCC and analogue control of accessories; 8. A test bed for lots of kit (point motors, signals etc.) as I’m a relatively new returnee to the hobby; 9. I rarely operate the layout alone, so operating interest was not a major priority, but what is there has to operate reliably when I have visitors, and I wanted some shunting potential for when I do want to ‘play trains’. The track plan is below (each square is one foot). The loft is divided into two halves (grey vertical line is the division between them) and the layout punches through the wall between them. In one half is the fiddle yard and a section of open running across a viaduct (based loosely on Welwyn viaduct but roughly half the size). This is the area coloured blue in the plan and is featured in the photo above. The other room is the main scenic area and features running out of a tunnel mouth through a short stretch of farming, then an industrial area before heading through a station on the other side of the room and into a three portal tunnel based on the Gasworks tunnel exit from King’s Cross. The station is not based on any prototype, but features typical Great Northern runs of trailing slips and the timetable will be based on trains through Hatfield. The layout was started about 5-6 years ago, but based in one half of the loft (the right hand of the plan above). Only the station area survives from this initial start and that is now the least finished part of the layout.

I spoke to their sound engineer at Ally Pally and they have found a similarly powered engine in Ireland which they’re using for the sound recording. I can’t now remember whether that was for the 21 or 29 and they couldn’t remember which Irish engine they’d used. I’m slightly sceptical but looking forward the hearing it, and after all, nobody will be able to say categorically whether it’s right or wrong!

That looks mind blowingly complicated - I’m glad I went for DCC! With my messy wiring that would have looked even more ridiculous. It now looks very smart...I just hope it works as efficiently as before the engineering works. All the best Andy