DCCing Old Locos for a returner to the world of MR.

[Lensmeister]

Hi all,

 

I am returning to MR after a number of years away. Money is very tight (wife, kids, mortgage etc.) so I need the best at the cheapest price. so I have a number of questions I need help with. After al I am practically a newbie. 

 

I have done some research on DCC so these are questions I have that have come from my research.

 

1. Which is the best (and cheapest) decoder for Lima/Hornby/Dapol/Mainline older stock (Pre 2000) to use and should a harness be used?

 

2. What are Cabs (simple please)?

 

3. What would be the best NMRA compliant system to use for a about 120 locos (once I get them up and running again) on a depot style layout that will be about 8ft x 2ft? (needs to be affordable and easy to use).

 

4. I tried http://rmweb.co.uk/dcc/Lima.htmjust now as I have a lot of Lima locos. But all the images are missing. Will these be  replaced at sometime?

 

5. My toolbox is not the biggest so what would you consider to be the essentials to get to convert to DCC (locos and layout)?

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi all,

 

I am returning to MR after a number of years away. Money is very tight (wife, kids, mortgage etc.) so I need the best at the cheapest price. so I have a number of questions I need help with. After al I am practically a newbie. 

 

I have done some research on DCC so these are questions I have that have come from my research.

 

1. Which is the best (and cheapest) decoder for Lima/Hornby/Dapol/Mainline older stock (Pre 2000) to use and should a harness be used?

 

Cheapest isn't the same as "best". You'll have to decide where your price/performance cut-off lies.  If you're really converting 120 locos, then suggest its worth getting a few different decoders and experimenting.   

And, for locos which have poorer quality motors and terrible gear systems, so you often need more expensive sophisticated decoders to control them. 

Some (many?) older locos are, quite frankly, a pain in the backside to convert, and the end result is still a loco which runs poorly.  You may be better with many to sell and use the proceeds towards a smaller number of modern models.

 

"Harness", by which I guess you mean some sort of plug-socket arrangement.  That depends on whether you expect to change decoders regularly.  May be worth it for some locos, may not be worth the trouble for others. 

 

Best, probably Zimo. Good price/performance for OO is a Lenz Standard or some TCS models.

 

2. What are Cabs (simple please)?

 

There is a Command Station (box of electronics which sends signals to the track), and there are user speed/feature control devices. These are variously called "throttles" and "cabs" in some makers and some websites. Most systems allow you to add more throttles to the system to allow additional humans to drive trains.

 

 

3. What would be the best NMRA compliant system to use for a about 120 locos (once I get them up and running again) on a depot style layout that will be about 8ft x 2ft? (needs to be affordable and easy to use).

 

All DCC systems work, so the question is what you want to achieve. "Best" is very subjective, and similar to asking "what's the best football team".

 

If there are 120 locos on the layout at a time, then suggest you look at mid-range systems, or get a system which is capable of upgrading.  You may find you actually need a 5A system, and possibly may end up needing a 5A system with a second booster for part of the layout.   Note that just about any system can cope with 120 locos sitting stationary, the performance limit will be how many are moving at a time - some systems this is around 10 to 20, others might allow all 120 to be under control at the same time (but can you get 120 mates around your layout!).

 

Don't worry about NMRA certificates, most makers never apply for them - just look at how few have been issued in the last ten years !

 

4. I tried http://rmweb.co.uk/dcc/Lima.htmjust now as I have a lot of Lima locos. But all the images are missing. Will these be  replaced at sometime?

 

5. My toolbox is not the biggest so what would you consider to be the essentials to get to convert to DCC (locos and layout)?

 

Can't answer (4).

 

To (5), I'd suggest a few screwdrivers, a simple multi-meter to test continuity (you need to fully isolate motor from pickups before fitting a decoder, and be sure of this before fitting a decoder), a good soldering iron with tip cleaning wire pad (way less trouble than the old damp sponge cleaners), good wire cutters and wire strippers, heat shrink to insulate any wiring joins.

 

[Lensmeister]

Cheapest isn't the same as "best". You'll have to decide where your price/performance cut-off lies.  If you're really converting 120 locos, then suggest its worth getting a few different decoders and experimenting.   

And, for locos which have poorer quality motors and terrible gear systems, so you often need more expensive sophisticated decoders to control them. 

Some (many?) older locos are, quite frankly, a pain in the backside to convert, and the end result is still a loco which runs poorly.  You may be better with many to sell and use the proceeds towards a smaller number of modern models.

 

"Harness", by which I guess you mean some sort of plug-socket arrangement.  That depends on whether you expect to change decoders regularly.  May be worth it for some locos, may not be worth the trouble for others.  I asked as I saw a video on using one the person siad may be best practice but I wasn't sure.

 

Best, probably Zimo. Good price/performance for OO is a Lenz Standard or some TCS models. The Gaugemaster or hattons ones any good?

 

 

There is a Command Station (box of electronics which sends signals to the track), and there are user speed/feature control devices. These are variously called "throttles" and "cabs" in some makers and some websites. Most systems allow you to add more throttles to the system to allow additional humans to drive trains. Thanks I thought it maybe but I was a bit unsure.  

 

 

 

All DCC systems work, so the question is what you want to achieve. "Best" is very subjective, and similar to asking "what's the best football team". I know the best football team ... WHITBY TOWN FC.

That aside I was looking at either the NCE or Gaugemaster Prodigy Express.

 

If there are 120 locos on the layout at a time, then suggest you look at mid-range systems, or get a system which is capable of upgrading.  You may find you actually need a 5A system, and possibly may end up needing a 5A system with a second booster for part of the layout.   Note that just about any system can cope with 120 locos sitting stationary, the performance limit will be how many are moving at a time - some systems this is around 10 to 20, others might allow all 120 to be under control at the same time (but can you get 120 mates around your layout!). Eventually I want to chip all the locos but I suspect I'll only have about 10/20 on at one time.

 

Don't worry about NMRA certificates, most makers never apply for them - just look at how few have been issued in the last ten years !

 

 

Can't answer (4).

 

To (5), I'd suggest a few screwdrivers, a simple multi-meter to test continuity (you need to fully isolate motor from pickups before fitting a decoder, and be sure of this before fitting a decoder), a good soldering iron with tip cleaning wire pad (way less trouble than the old damp sponge cleaners), good wire cutters and wire strippers, heat shrink to insulate any wiring joins. I have a few of these items already so that's a start

 

Nigel,

 

Thanks for you help. The cost of DCC is so high I want to make sure I get all my thoughts sorted before committing to one system. 

 

I have

Dapol/Mainline/Replica 56s and 45s.

Lima 47s, 55s, 50s, 37s, 27, 26, 40, 31

Hornby 08, 06, 

Mainline (I think) 03

Joeuff 40

Airfix 31s

 

Many of mu old loco really need a good clean up and servicing. a few (the 03 for example) have just ceased to work.  Add to these I have a number Kleinbahn OBB stock and a couple of American locos too.

[Grovenor]

If money is very tight and the layout will only be 8ft by 2ft, then I would forget DCC for now and just wire the layout up with a few sections to allow normal DC operation, then sort out your trains. \when its operating and you have more of a feel for the number of locos you really want to run on the layout, then consider if DCC will be worthwhile.

Regards

[Lensmeister]

If money is very tight and the layout will only be 8ft by 2ft, then I would forget DCC for now and just wire the layout up with a few sections to allow normal DC operation, then sort out your trains. \when its operating and you have more of a feel for the number of locos you really want to run on the layout, then consider if DCC will be worthwhile.

Regards

Thanks.

 

I had initially considered this but I am not the best when it comes to wiring lots of points and section breaks. If I went DCC after construction then I would have to solder wire between section breaks. Also I would like to have been able to use a shunter to bring a 'failed' loco in to the shed and move off again then after the 'failed' loco had been repaired return out on it's own. 

 

 

I have read a few good articles on the NCE and the gaugemaster Prodigy express and heard via websites/forums the hattons/gaugemaster decoders were quite good.

 

Thanks again Grovenor

 

Also forgot to mention if I have DCC I am going to try and get my computer whizzkid son to dabble in a computer program. Might help for his uni work.

[Grovenor]

For a really tight budget you may want to look at decoders from Aliexpress, worth trying a couple anyway.

Regards

[Nigelcliffe]

Replying to your comments earlier - "Gaugemaster or Hattons chips",  I wouldn't bother myself, seeing them as a bit like ordering a Trabant.   Others may take a different view - I expect superb control not "averagely indifferent".

 

NCE Powercab  -  potential as a starter system. It is expandable to a more advanced system, so that's good.   Gaugemaster Prodigy Express, too "closed" in my opinion. 

 

"Computer control" - whole different board game, depends what software you want to use - start at the software and work back to the hardware.   The NCE probably OK for computer stuff, the Gaugemaster isn't really up to it.

 

I'd forget converting just about every loco you've listed and get newer examples of the models you really want to run.  Sorry, but I don't think the grief of conversion is worth the trouble.   If that blows your budget, then DCC was probably beyond the budget as well.   Sorry to appear negative, but I don't think throwing money at poor stuff is worth it. 

 

 

 

I agree with Grovenor - if budget is tight, get want you want to keep working again, wire it all for DC. Decide whether to keep or replace older locos.  If you want to go DCC later, just turn on all the section switches, replace the controller, and it works as DCC. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Lensmeister]

Thanks guys,

 

I think I'll begin DC then assess DCC ... I did fancy the NCE a while ago when I first looked into it.

 

Maybe the better runners of the "old" stock I'll clean right up and convert in time.

 

Again Thanks  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Cheapest isn't the same as "best".

 

You'll have to decide where your price/performance cut-off lies. 

 

If you're really converting 120 locos, then suggest its worth getting a few different decoders and experimenting.   

 

And, for locos which have poorer quality motors and terrible gear systems, so you often need more expensive sophisticated decoders to control them. 

 

Some (many?) older locos are, quite frankly, a pain in the backside to convert, and the end result is still a loco which runs poorly.  You may be better with many to sell and use the proceeds towards a smaller number of modern models...

 I cannot strongly enough endorse this very sound advice.

 

120 decoders is a fair slice of cash even if you go for the cheapest decoder available. Go quality and buy direct from Germany and you will be down circa £1500 for Lenz standards, which is what you will need to begin to cudgel decent perfomance from many of the drives. (There's an advantage in using one decoder design when it gets to having this number in use. For a start you only have to learn one adjustment process to maximally exploit it: all decoder makes differ in detail, what CV adjustments work best.)

 

Even the best decoders are limited by mechanism design limitations. You can throw a decoder in the £30-£40 bracket from Zimo or CTE at some old ringpiece drive, and it will still audibly signal its presence, even if the decoder can make it move smoothly.

 

 Now, from your own posting:

...I am not the best when it comes to wiring lots of points and section breaks. If I went DCC after construction then I would have to solder wire between section breaks...

 Is the implication of this that electrical soldering is not a favourite activity? Because if so, the installation of 120 decoders in locos never designed for plug and play decoder installation is a minimum of 480 solder joints just to get the motors running, and actually a hell of a lot more to replace the internal wiring which often looks like it was made from factory floor sweepings (Northern Italian factory floor sweepings if you get my drift).

 

BTW, don't worry about soldering across section breaks. For DCC on a sectioned DC layout, you just turn all switches 'on'. Very helpful having some sectioning on a DCC layout, speeds finding a short circuit by narrowing down quickly on the section which contains the short.

 

 

 

My best advice: a few decoders to trial, definitely including a Lenz standard, and one modern centre motored loco. Try for example a Heljan class 23 at an outrageous £69 from a well known Liverpool emporium, with the Lenz standard in it.  Gob smackingly good perfromance or what? Consider the saying 'Less is more'.

[johnb]

Thanks.

 

I had initially considered this but I am not the best when it comes to wiring lots of points and section breaks. If I went DCC after construction then I would have to solder wire between section breaks. Also I would like to have been able to use a shunter to bring a 'failed' loco in to the shed and move off again then after the 'failed' loco had been repaired return out on it's own. 

 

 

I have read a few good articles on the NCE and the gaugemaster Prodigy express and heard via websites/forums the hattons/gaugemaster decoders were quite good.

 

Thanks again Grovenor

 

Also forgot to mention if I have DCC I am going to try and get my computer whizzkid son to dabble in a computer program. Might help for his uni work.

 

If you build for DC and then go to DCC all you have to do is switch on all the sections. That's all  I did for my small (13ft x 1ft) retired exhibition layout 13th Street Yard worked fine for over five years and a lot of shows as a DCC layout.

 

As for systems I tried several and then went for an NCE Powercab which I considered most suitable for me

 

Chips, well I've a mixture, NCE, Digitrax, TCS, Atlas, some Hornby, Bachmann, Hattons. All are OK for me (I stress me!), but then I'm only running on short switching/shunting/terminus layouts. So I don't feel that I need a great deal of finesse

 

For my older locos, Lima etc, I just hardwire the chips. Lima motors can be a bit temperamental for startup so I've had to tweak chips some to provide a pulse on starting. Easy to do with an NCE Powercab.

 

Just be sure that you keep the motor connections totally separate from the pickups, the Mainline 03 has a split chassis (I think), tricky to manage that one. If you have some older Athearn or Atlas locos, beware the lower motor brush connection is in direct contact with the live metal chassis, that MUST insulatied and hard wired for DCC

.

Well that's my views FWIW, it keeps me happy. But as you have already seen there are many and varied views.

 

John

[AMJ]

A simple idea which helps if you decide to go DCC is keep a note of the chip in each loco, any programming tweaks you make and the address.  I have a simple excel sheet with the loco number (as marked on the loco) and the corresponding address.  OK when you use Dxxxx numbers but as I have steam locos with 5 digit running numbers.......

 

If you can separate the layout into 2 you could do like I did whilst chipping locos.  Have half on DC the other half on DCC, just keep each batch of locos away from the other, saves any complexities.

 

Somewhere I have my last LIMA loco a Deltic which without finding and taking the body off I can't remember how I chipped it.

 

Think about DCC and you will eventually think about extra lights and sounds.

 

The simplest to fit are those where there are 2 obvious wires to the motor from the pickups, these you could split wires and crimp the chip wires on.  

 

BUT if you have space I would fit a socket into the loco because if you get the DCC bug big time it would be simple to swap a standard chip for say a sound chip.

 

Bachmann often sell quite well known brand chips in their boxes, it is worth digging on the web to find out what they are as these can be a reasonable route.