South Lynn signal query

[31A]

Hi all,

 

I'm making a signal based loosely on the one which can be seen at the right hand side of this photo:

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVES/MIDLAND/i-4hBHRpC/A

 

It has a five way electric route indicator below the arm.  The route indicator seems to be made up of five units, each one roughly the size of a normal signal lamp.  Next to it on the ground is a disc signal.

 

My model will have a wooden post and a miniature arm rather than a full sized one.  In order to simplify matters, the route indicators will be non-working - on the layout, the signal is normally viewed from the rear.

 

I've made a non-working mock up using Ratio plastic parts:

 

 

I've found another picture of the real signal, in "Aspects of East Anglian Steam - Volume Two" (J. D. Mann, South Anglia Productions, 1991), which is clearer but again shows the rear of the signal.  From this there appears to be seven balance weight levers on the signal post, three on the side nearest the line (one of which faces the other way) and four on the side furthest from the line.  This picture also gives a clearer view of the back of the route indicator.

 

I've also found a signal box diagram from South Lynn Junction, in LNERGE's collection on Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8434800267/in/album-72157627782450647/

 

I had thought that the numerous balance weights were because there was one for each of the route indicators (which would each be worked from a separate lever), plus a slotting arrangement so that the arm cleared regardless which of the levers was pulled.  In the picture in the book, it appears that the balance weight levers are each connected to electrical switches attached to the rear of the signal post.

 

However the diagram shows only two levers working this signal (72 & 75), with the adjacent disc being worked by 57, 58 or 59.

 

In order to make the model, I wondered whether anybody knew of a picture of the front of this signal, or of similar route indicators, so that I can model their 'faces'?

 

Also, what do the balance weight lever brackets look like (they appear to be castings)?

 

As a supplementary question, I wondered how the 'slotting' of the balance weights actually worked (although I don't intend to model it in working form), and whether indeed all of the balance weights are connected with this signal or are some associated with the adjacent disc?  Perhaps three of the five route indicators actually clear when the disc is pulled off, rather than the main signal?

[Fenman]

Hi all,

 

I'm making a signal based loosely on the one which can be seen at the right hand side of this photo:

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVES/MIDLAND/i-4hBHRpC/A

 

It has a five way electric route indicator below the arm. The route indicator seems to be made up of five units, each one roughly the size of a normal signal lamp. Next to it on the ground is a disc signal.

 

My model will have a wooden post and a miniature arm rather than a full sized one. In order to simplify matters, the route indicators will be non-working - on the layout, the signal is normally viewed from the rear.

 

I've made a non-working mock up using Ratio plastic parts:

 

P1010997.jpg

 

I've found another picture of the real signal, in "Aspects of East Anglian Steam - Volume Two" (J. D. Mann, South Anglia Productions, 1991), which is clearer but again shows the rear of the signal. From this there appears to be seven balance weight levers on the signal post, three on the side nearest the line (one of which faces the other way) and four on the side furthest from the line. This picture also gives a clearer view of the back of the route indicator.

 

I've also found a signal box diagram from South Lynn Junction, in LNERGE's collection on Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8434800267/in/album-72157627782450647/

 

I had thought that the numerous balance weights were because there was one for each of the route indicators (which would each be worked from a separate lever), plus a slotting arrangement so that the arm cleared regardless which of the levers was pulled. In the picture in the book, it appears that the balance weight levers are each connected to electrical switches attached to the rear of the signal post.

 

However the diagram shows only two levers working this signal (72 & 75), with the adjacent disc being worked by 57, 58 or 59.

 

In order to make the model, I wondered whether anybody knew of a picture of the front of this signal, or of similar route indicators, so that I can model their 'faces'?

 

Also, what do the balance weight lever brackets look like (they appear to be castings)?

 

As a supplementary question, I wondered how the 'slotting' of the balance weights actually worked (although I don't intend to model it in working form), and whether indeed all of the balance weights are connected with this signal or are some associated with the adjacent disc? Perhaps three of the five route indicators actually clear when the disc is pulled off, rather than the main signal?

I'm afraid I can't answer your question but I'd like to thank you for the link to the M&GN photos - utterly wonderful images.

 

And anyway this reply will bump your question back to the top...

 

Good luck.

 

Paul

[Grovenor]

 

Perhaps three of the five route indicators actually clear when the disc is pulled off, rather than the main signal?

That is certainly what is shown by the box diagram, and 5 levers plus two slots, one for each signal would give you the 7 balance weights. Since its an electric indicator each of the lever balace arms would be connected to a circuit controller on the post to light up the relevant lamp.

Regards

[31A]

I'm afraid I can't answer your question but I'd like to thank you for the link to the M&GN photos - utterly wonderful images.

 

And anyway this reply will bump your question back to the top...

 

Good luck.

 

Paul

 

Yes, it's a good collection isn't it, mostly I think pictures which I haven't seen before.

 

That is certainly what is shown by the box diagram, and 5 levers plus two slots, one for each signal would give you the 7 balance weights. Since its an electric indicator each of the lever balace arms would be connected to a circuit controller on the post to light up the relevant lamp.

Regards

 

 

Thanks Keith, looks like that doesn't it, I was just a bit surprised that all five indicators are mounted on the signal post, but I suppose it makes sense to put them there!

[LNERGE]

Each lever operates a weight bar. In this case 72 or 75 will operate the miniature arm and 57, 58 or 59 will operate the disc via the weight bars on the main signal. A circuit controller on each weight bar and with on on the miniature arm and one on the disc will cause the relevant indicator to light.

 

Here is a circuit diagram for something similar. I can redrawn it to reflect the way it was used at South Lynn if you like....

 

[31A]

Many thanks for the comprehensive information.

 

Now I realise that the route indicators (and weight bars) on the South Lynn signal also applied to the adjacent disc, it all becomes clear, especially the arrangement of the route indicators with the column of two next to the signal post applying to the adjacent semaphore arm and the column of three next to it applying to the disc, which was physically below these indicators.

 

The arrangement shown in the diagram you have posted would suit the model signal I am making.  Thinking of the physical appearance of the signal, would I be correct in thinking that it would have six weight bars altogether, one attached to each of the five levers, with the sixth just connected to the arm and lifted by whichever of the others was pulled?  In which case, presumably they would all be on one side of the post, contained within a large bracket - what would such a bracket look like?

Also, does anyone have a picture of the front of a similar route indicator?  As I said, it seems to be made up of five individual units stacked on top of each other, whereas others I have seen (more modern?) seem to be contained within a single casing.

[LNERGE]

I'm stuck in my orifice without access to my photo's. This signal is worth a study if you can search for more photos of it..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/126337928@N05/16366393139/in/photolist-qWf3u4-CAQSrN-A8kuqC-FVRzjo-C4yFvL-G6vLc1-CbQL9U-BM28KN-BgL6qK-AagfoB-tPS3Ky-FasfCQ-FzHqC1-sTc3RQ-tvxGu3-uvQ1c4-nBR1Gc-dQVENr-nBS9CR-nBRCzW-pitXMP-qhFwS1-Gh6165-nUmv4X-6RUHBw-qjMtEv-pzYP2M-aXDqAM-pitS7v-pzX4d3-5VQ9nx-8AhKW1-qjUbhm-Gh94Ey-nBSEGP-oa3bGN-nW8Nv2-nUjzsR-fWHCx6-EhjCSn-orfwsF-wSrfci-FRZDGY-HXVvAe-pisi6z-nSjibL-orfnEv-q3pDrJ-HFdAjP-bDE1Tn

 

The main part of this signal is out of shot to the left. I will post a picture much later on if you've no found anything.

[31A]

Thank you, that's an interesting one.  Also a dodd with route indicators, which will be useful elsewhere on the layout!

 

Not found anything on line so far but will resort to old fashioned books!

[31A]

Having taken note of what you said ("out of shot to the left") and had a look at the box diagram on line, I guess you're referring to the contraption above the roof of the 31 in the picture on this site of two 31s leaving Lowestoft on a railtour:

 

http://picssr.com/photos/chrisboon/interesting?nsid=22112476@N04

 

It's not the kind of thing you see modelled every day - a better picture would be handy but haven't found one yet!

[LNERGE]

This is the mechanism for operating the disc signal with the four way indicator. The post was most probably the signal leading from the Yarmouth single line at one time and carried a main arm and calling on arm..

 

 

 

[LNERGE]

Something similar here but on the ground..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/5935846989/

[LNERGE]

Sounds like you found this?...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/13152919853/

[Swindon 123]

Many thanks for the comprehensive information.

 

Now I realise that the route indicators (and weight bars) on the South Lynn signal also applied to the adjacent disc, it all becomes clear, especially the arrangement of the route indicators with the column of two next to the signal post applying to the adjacent semaphore arm and the column of three next to it applying to the disc, which was physically below these indicators.

 

The arrangement shown in the diagram you have posted would suit the model signal I am making.  Thinking of the physical appearance of the signal, would I be correct in thinking that it would have six weight bars altogether, one attached to each of the five levers, with the sixth just connected to the arm and lifted by whichever of the others was pulled?  In which case, presumably they would all be on one side of the post, contained within a large bracket - what would such a bracket look like?

 

Also, does anyone have a picture of the front of a similar route indicator?  As I said, it seems to be made up of five individual units stacked on top of each other, whereas others I have seen (more modern?) seem to be contained within a single casing.

I have these two shots of a similar thing that may be of use. First shot of the front of a disk with route indicators at Salop. The second shot a similar style from the back at Wrexham.

 

 

Hope they are of help.

 

Paul J.

[LNERGE]

[31A]

This is the mechanism for operating the disc signal with the four way indicator. The post was most probably the signal leading from the Yarmouth single line at one time and carried a main arm and calling on arm..

 

00000206.jpg

 

00000207.jpg

 

00000213.jpg

 

Thanks, very useful.  Something like that alongside the signal I'm modelling would certainly simplify the model of the signal itself, and would be something a bit unusual!

 

 

Something similar here but on the ground..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/5935846989/

 

Interesting as well; perhaps less easy to make a model of!

 

Sounds like you found this?...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/13152919853/

 

Indeed - it was the comments below that picture on Flickr that led me to look further!

 

I have these two shots of a similar thing that may be of use. First shot of the front of a disk with route indicators at Salop. The second shot a similar style from the back at Wrexham.

Salop ground disc.jpg

 

Wrexham ground disc..jpg

 

Hope they are of help.

 

Paul J.

 

Yes, very useful thanks, I had been looking for pictures of discs with route indicators but hadn't found any clear ones.

 

DSC01651.JPG

 

 

Brilliant, just what I wanted - thanks so much!  Any idea of the approx date of that publication?  Some early colour lights were installed at S. Lynn in the 1930s and I assume the electric route indicators there might also date from that time?

[LNERGE]

The SGE catalogue dates from the early fifties. It wouldn't surprise me to see these stencils in use by the late thirties and possibly earlier..

[31A]

Thanks, that'll do nicely!  They're actually a bit smaller than I'd guesstimated.