Inside frames pre-1906 - Indian red or black?

[Compound2632]

I have a little project on the go to backdate an Oxford Dean Goods to original condition - going for one of Lot 82 built 1890*. I understand that wheels, outside frames and valences were painted Indian red, but what about the outside faces of inside frames? Looking at the photos of models on gwr.org.uk, there seems to be a consensus in favour of black but the text isn't explicit - in fact it says "... frames were indian red" without distinction. 

 

Any elucidation?

 

*ignoring the narrow vs wide footplate width.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Compound2632

[JimC]

If I read it correctly GWW suggests :

Swindon inside frames were red unless inside outside frames

Wolverhampton inside frames were black

[Compound2632]

If I read it correctly GWW suggests :

Swindon inside frames were red unless inside outside frames

Wolverhampton inside frames were black

 

... which would imply red inside frames on a Dean Goods.

[Miss Prism]

Wolverhampton inside frames were black

 

I can't see that in GWW.  (Although Dean Goods were all Swindon, so Wolverhampton liveries would presumably not apply.)

 

China Red (vermilion) for the inside faces of frames gets a first mention for the '1897' scheme, and is assumed to continue thereafter.

[Compound2632]

I can't see that in GWW.  (Although Dean Goods were all Swindon, so Wolverhampton liveries would presumably not apply.)

 

China Red (vermilion) for the inside faces of frames gets a first mention for the '1897' scheme, and is assumed to continue thereafter.

 

It's the colour of the outside faces of inside frames upon which I am seeking clarity. Vermillion inside faces and fixed parts of the motion is understood.

 

My Dean Goods is intended to be a Wolverhampton-based one but it's already been established to at least my own satisfaction that that has no bearing on livery.

[Miss Prism]

It's the colour of the outside faces of inside frames upon which I am seeking clarity.

 

Indian Red. (or 'purple brown' as GWW would have it) 

 

(I hope http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1900.html is sufficiently clear on this.)

Edited October 23, 2018 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

Indian Red. (or 'purple brown' as GWW would have it)

 

Thanks. Makes life a little more interesting! I note Lee Marsh has gone for black but wenlock chose indian red - though in other respects wenlock's engine is in a transitional livery.

[JimC]

I can't see that in GWW.  (Although Dean Goods were all Swindon, so Wolverhampton liveries would presumably not apply.)

 

Nor can I now! Strange. 

 

The table (chart 3) on P27 of latest edition of GWW doesn't seem to specify the outside colour of inside only frames, which demonstrates, I guess, how difficult it is to write this stuff.

 

Agreed that a Wolverhampton livery exceeding unlikely on an 1890 Dean goods.

[Miss Prism]

I note Lee Marsh has gone for black

 

Yes, he does seem to be using black for his latest pre-1906 locos. Hmmm. Dunno. I will enquire.

[Miss Prism]

Lee Marsh's response is v interesting. For pre-1906:

 

- black for the outside face of inside-framed locos;

- indian red for the outside face of outside-framed locos.

 

(China red for the inside faces in both cases, not that there was any doubt about that aspect.)

 

I can see a sort of logic in the above, in a weird Swindon logic sort of way.

[Compound2632]

Thanks. I'm inclined to go with Indian Red - an interesting challenge which will involve more dis-assembly. Will it work when I put it back together?

 

Without wishing to open another can of worms - or perhaps go chasing after the worms that have been out of the tin for a good long while - is there any consensus on the best Indian Red? Precision do one (and a pre-1906 green) - not so long to go until Warley, which is my best chance of getting their pre-Grouping paints. I don't have complete confidence - their Midland freight stock grey is wrong (LMS wagon grey being spot on to my mind). 

[Miss Prism]

I posted some potential 'indian reds' in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65514-indian-red-revisited/

 

I'm reading through the thread again, but it seems apparent that the information there is not consistent with Lee Marsh's latest declaration. I suspect we are into the 'anything goes' chaos that characterised Swindon between 1900-6.

[Compound2632]

 

I posted some potential 'indian reds' in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65514-indian-red-revisited/

 

I'm reading through the thread again, but it seems apparent that the information there is not consistent with Lee Marsh's latest declaration. I suspect we are into the 'anything goes' chaos that characterised Swindon between 1900-6.

 

 

Thanks for the link to that interesting thread. Of course I'm looking to reproduce an engine painted in the 1890s, before any simplification of livery was thought of.