DCC for dummies

[tigerburnie]

I am a little bewildered by a lot of these DCC threads, most seem to be frightening folk away with comments about complicated wiring and constant electrical faults associated with huge cost and complicated running, is it really this bad?

I am in the early stages of planning for a new project(not that the old one is completed yet) and want to have sound on my locos, so figure that DCC will be required. Not a massive complicated layout, but a small country station and yard based on the old station where I live, half a dozen points, a couple of signals, a few sidings and the ECML running through it, plan to use the simplist controller off the shelf not a laptop so I can shunt, toot and whistle and have through trains passing by. A portable layout that might even go to an exhibition if it's good enough, surely that's not got to have an old telephone exchange worth of wiring and the need of a mortgage to do is it?

[WIMorrison]

Absolutely not as bad as made out by many posters and threads on here.

 

My experience is that it just works, you do need to understand the basic concepts of how it works but you do not need to get into the detail and the great majority of people don't. Some people enjoy making things look difficult and awkward - often not deliberately, just through a desire to provide a full and complete answer which regrettable can sometimes make things appear much more complicated than they need to be,m but it does make the poster feel better as they can show their knowledge to one and all

 

The point I would make is that this is an internet forum and people cant see you, similarly you cant actually see them, therefore it is important that you are very clear in the question and when the answer doesn't meet your need then simply ask it again - and remember that most people post about faults, many of which are actually misunderstandings or operator errors and not faults with DCC which is essentially extremely reliable and pretty fool proof.

 

Jump in with both feet, you wont regret the move into DCC. You may find these pages useful to help you understand what it is about https://dccwiki.com/DCC_Tutorial_(Basic_System)

 

Iain

Edited February 26, 2019 by WIMorrison
Added URL

[ROSSPOP]

Steady Tiger !

 

You don`t say what gauge your working to...but it matters not the same applies to 4mm or 7mm.

 

I have a very simple O Gauge end to end layout in a garden shed.

 

I only use DCC control  for loco operation in gorgeous sound !! and all my   track and pointwork is good old fashioned analogue control with traditional wiring.

 

DCC IS as simple as you want to make it. but not necessarily cheap....

 

I have had this DCC controller for 10 years now and it does everything  I need in DCC and still available for under £200

 

if you wish to have quality loco performance and quality sound it pays to invest in quality decoders which currently are £99 - 110  a pop !! per loco...plus fitting or buy locos already equipped...which puts up the price....

 

I use only Zimo decoders as they remain the best up-to date on the market....

 

 

if you can use a soldering iron they are simple to hard wire to any loco yourself.....  obviously in 4mm ...space for a decoder and speaker can be an issue sometimes...

 

Trackwork wiring.... you need to guarrantee that every piece of track is securely powered up . dont rely on rail connectors... wire droppers will be more reliable   ......

 

 

Pointwork wiring for DCC is also simple...... three track power connections   ..one of which must isolate the V crossing.....

 

 

...even if you use 4mm Peco points... they wil need modifying ( although as I understand it the new finescale bullhead products are alredy done)   plus of course point motors at the `toe` end to suit your own needs.

 

but what you get in the end is fantastic.......

 

 

 

 

Also available in 4mm.........

 

 

 

...and I`m just a simple old codger .....

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by ROSSPOP

[johnb]

It's as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. My main exhibition layout has a simple power bus feeding the tracks via droppers, so that all are live, with track breaks as necessary. Point control in not DCC and uses Tortiose motors via ordinary double pole changeover switches fed from a separate 12vDC power supply. There are nine electrofrog points and an insulfrog double slip (because that was what I had in stock), so eleven motors in all.

The controller I use is an NCE Powercab, others have different preferences as you will have noted. I don't have sound, but do run friends sound fitted locos without any issue whatsoever.

It's a small terminus to fiddle yard layout 13ft x 1ft, it's called Whitecross Street and is at the Chesham show this coming Sunday, so if you can make it come and chat.

 

I do have small US themed layout 5ft long that uses DCC, on that the electrofrog points are hand thrown, very simple that in that there are literally just two wires to one location, OK not really all that well done as the points do isolate, but doesn't bother me as its usually one engine operation.

 

John

Edited February 26, 2019 by johnb
Typo

[Andymsa]

39 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Absolutely not as bad as made out by many posters and threads on here.

 

My experience is that it just works, you do need to understand the basic concepts of how it works but you do not need to get into the detail and the great majority of people don't. Some people enjoy making things look difficult and awkward - often not deliberately, just through a desire to provide a full and complete answer which regrettable can sometimes make things appear much more complicated than they need to be,m but it does make the poster feel better as they can show their knowledge to one and all

 

The point I would make is that this is an internet forum and people cant see you, similarly you cant actually see them, therefore it is important that you are very clear in the question and when the answer doesn't meet your need then simply ask it again - and remember that most people post about faults, many of which are actually misunderstandings or operator errors and not faults with DCC which is essentially extremely reliable and pretty fool proof.

 

Jump in with both feet, you wont regret the move into DCC. You may find these pages useful to help you understand what it is about https://dccwiki.com/DCC_Tutorial_(Basic_System)

 

Iain

 

Absolutly agree with Iain, don't be put off. You can make it complex or simple as you wish but do plan with possible additions you may wish to add.

[Ian Morgan]

As others have said, it can be as simple, or as complex, as you want it to be. Most of the feared complexity is just the same for a DCC layout as for an analogue layout built to fulfill the same requirements.

 

A very simple layout could be controlled by just two wires from a controller to the layout, with hand operated points - DCC or analogue.

 

Adding a below baseboard track bus with droppers from each length of track is popular for DCC users, but is just as valid for an analogue layout if long-term reliability is required, as electrical conduction by fishplates can break down over time, or when compromised by paint and ballasting.

 

Similarly, modifying Peco points to be 'DCC Friendly' is equally valid for analogue use, to improve long term reliability. It is just that analogue controllers tend to be more forgiving of the passing electrical short circuits when the back of a wheel touches a point blade or wrong side of a frog.

 

Addition of point motors, train position sensors, etc. all adds complexity to the layout wiring, but again, this will be much the same for DCC and analogue control. Indeed, with DCC, it could involve less wiring, but maybe more knowledge.

 

So, start by asking yourself the important questions:

• What do you want from your layout?
• What do you think you are capable of doing (or can get support with doing)?
• How much time and money can you afford to spend to attain your dream?

Then, research. Look at what is available. Look at what others are doing. Sample, test, try out, and finally decide.

 

Good luck

[tigerburnie]

I live up in north east Scotland and currently getting over an operation, so sadly won't be able to travel to see ant others work for a while, I had hoped to attend the Glasgow exhibition las t weekend and wouldn't you know it, they called me in for the op on the day I had bought my rail tickets(and I made the mistake of buying tickets I could not return, grrrrrrrrrr).

This is a project that will run along side my current Great Central one as the locos and rolling stock are for the most part interchangeable, I first need to clear out the summer house to make room, then build the four 2 metre by 1 metre tables(with removable legs). Once done the layout(proposed in this thread) 

can be begun, the idea is to be an end to end but in a "U" shape, so two 2M x 1M for the station and yard and a 2M x 1M fiddle yard at each end. I doubt there will be many occasions when more than one loco will be moving at a time,the prime reason for DCC for me is to add sound to the set up.

[tigerburnie]

This the basic idea for the station and yard area in OO gauge

Edited February 26, 2019 by tigerburnie

[Pete the Elaner]

 

What you would do & what you feel is right to recommend publicly are not always the same.

You may ride a bike on short trips without a helmet but would you recommend doing this to others who you may not have met?

 

Wiring is no different. Some may get away with using point blades & rail joiners for electrical continuity but with larger, older layouts, point blades become unreliable & resistance builds up in rail joints.

 

If you want sounds, then you will want your sidings live all the time. You will therefore need to isolate & re-feed every siding, which I would recommend doing anyway whether the layout is powered by DC or DCC.

By isolating & re-feeding, you effectively break the layout up into small sections & will make it easier to understand than feeding a siding from 3 points away, like you could get away with on the bottom siding on your layout. You can expand this method to a larger layout simply by using more sections & it does not get a lot more complicated.

 

I wish people would stop recommending modifying an Electrofrog point "For DCC". It is for better reliability & to help prevent shorts from wheels with poor clearance. DCC is simply less tolerant of a short circuit but I would also recommend modifying points in this way for a DC layout.

 

Apart from that small technicality, I would agree that everything John has recommended is good practice.

 

 

[tigerburnie]

Are we saying that you cannot buy a point that will function in "DCC" without having to modify it then?

[WIMorrison]

18 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Are we saying that you cannot buy a point that will function in "DCC" without having to modify it then?

 

absolutely not, any point will work with either DC or DCC however there are improvements that can be made which are equally as effective for good DC running as they are for DCC running

[Ron Ron Ron]

49 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Are we saying that you cannot buy a point that will function in "DCC" without having to modify it then?

 

The "modification" is simple, child's play.

Peco give clear simple instructions about what needs to be done.

There are other manufacturers whose points are ready to lay without needing any changes (e.g. Tillig).

Most hand or kit built points would be built this way in the first place.

 

 

.

[RobjUK]

4 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

I am a little bewildered by a lot of these DCC threads, most seem to be frightening folk away with comments about complicated wiring and constant electrical faults associated with huge cost and complicated running, is it really this bad?

 

As a relatively new DCC user myself:

 

For a minimal controller > track > loco setup, the only essential change from a DC loco to DCC loco is disconnecting the two wires to the motor and connecting an appropriate DCC decoder in line - the original two wires from the pickups to the decoder and two wires from that to the motor.

Or a ready-equipped DCC  loco.

 

The first controller I got was a Digitrax Zephyr [DCS51] from ebay.

That's a completely self-contained unit [not counting the laptop-style power supply brick] and "just works"

 

The overall setup needs to be no more complex than with DC, with the instant advantage you can have more than one loco on the track and control them separately, without needing isolating sections etc.

And forward is always forward!

 

Plus the possibility of multiple lights, effects, sound etc. in locos, all with direct control from the same box.

 

At the other end, the sky is the limit - it's totally down to what you want to get out of your layout.

 

Rob.

[Pete the Elaner]

54 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Are we saying that you cannot buy a point that will function in "DCC" without having to modify it then?

You mis-understood.

Modifying an electrofrog point has nothing to do with DCC & everything to do with reliability.

[Sir TophamHatt]

It depends where you're coming from too!

 

I understood DC to be more "train set".

You turn the knob.  The more you turn it, the faster the loco runs.  Lights come on when the train runs, it's a little hard to get really slow running.  Any train on the same track will run at the same speed (more or less).

 

Then I read about power districts on DC.
I see this as a cheat way of DCC.  You can control different "tracks" with different controllers, but it's still the same mechanic as above.

 

The above has two wires connected from the power controller to the track.

It seems DCC was marketed to be the same, but in reality, people have improved on it.

You could run a DCC layout connecting two wires to the track, but most people don't.  I guess most people don't run a DC layout with just one power input either.

 

If you find a DC user jeering at the fact they were told DCC is "two wires only" ask them where the marketing for that is...  that's from the last 2 years.  I couldn't find any.
Remember, people were marketed diesel cars as good and now look!

 

DCC allows me to drive trains rather than a layout.

 

If you're coming from DC and have 200+ DC locos, chipping them (at £20 a chip) will be expensive.  But you'll be left further and further behind.  Locos these days are coming out highly detailed, DCC fitted and DCC Sound fitted.  Soon, the balance will tip and one manufacturer will market a loco as DCC-only, which will start the rest.

[tigerburnie]

I do mis understand quite easily, it's a skill I have lol. As part of my apprenticeship I used to wire up control panels for marine radar units, so able to use a soldering iron and read wiring diagrams, just trying to get my head around the theory and it's practical application. I also used to work with PLC controlled equipment including modifying the programs when required, but I really would like to apply the good old principal of KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid)

[tigerburnie]

I guess I would be looking at buying off the shelf, already fitted where I can, but I do have 4 or 5 DCC ready loco's that I would be adding chips and sound to at some stage, the older loco's that are tender driven will only run on the DC Great Central layout, which is still evolving slowly.

This DCC project will be primarily for running the yard in a rural station, so there was a coal merchants(small train delivering and then shunting the wagons  ready for unloading and then dispersal on the mainline) collection of agricultural goods like grain, animals and milk(so small trains of empty vans delivered and then taken away) then passing freight and passenger traffic on the mainline going by. I do however think I might invoke rule one of the modelers licence and actually "re-open" the station to local passenger traffic, even though it actually closed in the 1930's to such traffic.

I have yet to decide on the locos required for some sort of authenticity for the goods yard, but as the period will be 1955(ish) to the end of steam, I will not have to be too obscure in choice, so hopefully DCC with TTS will be available. Regarding accessories, they will not be DCC controlled, the points might even be manual rather than motorised, just like the prototype.

[Pete the Elaner]

DCC allows you to change your mind about accessory control at a later date.

I was going to control accessories the traditional way but I had a few spare connections which allowed me to change my mind.

[Ravenser]

6 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

I am a little bewildered by a lot of these DCC threads, most seem to be frightening folk away with comments about complicated wiring and constant electrical faults associated with huge cost and complicated running, is it really this bad?

I am in the early stages of planning for a new project(not that the old one is completed yet) and want to have sound on my locos, so figure that DCC will be required. Not a massive complicated layout, but a small country station and yard based on the old station where I live, half a dozen points, a couple of signals, a few sidings and the ECML running through it, plan to use the simplist controller off the shelf not a laptop so I can shunt, toot and whistle and have through trains passing by. A portable layout that might even go to an exhibition if it's good enough, surely that's not got to have an old telephone exchange worth of wiring and the need of a mortgage to do is it?

I fully understand your bewilderment. 

 

DCC debate threads tend to turn into a pitched battle between 2 camps - the hardcore DC advocates , who argue that DCC can offer no benefits over DC , but at inordinate cost, and will counter every advantage /benefit mentioned with notional problems and complications; and the bright-eyed DCC evangelists  who argue that "there can be no excuse for using DC", and being classic "early adaptors" want the latest cutting edge kit, and recommend you festoon everything with state-of-the-art bells, whistles, train detection and fully-interlocked automated computer control....

 

In your case , you don't need a telephone exchange (unless you go analogue DC with a big layout) or a second mortgage (unless you go DCC on a big layout with 200 locos and go mad on the bells-and-whistles front)

 

Your main practical constraint is your desire for sound locos - because these can draw up to 1A each.

 

The NCE Powercab is an excellent system - I have one myself , like it a lot - and in all respects but one , it would suit you perfectly.

 

The one fly in the ointment is that the PowerCab only delivers 1.5A . So 2 sound locos and you're in trouble.... Use the little US transformer supplied  through an adaptor, and it's  just 1.1A 

 

You can upgrade to the SmartBooster, or buy the PowerPro , and in both cases get 5A. But that will push up the cost by another £250...  (Similar considerations apply to other brands of systems - "full fat" systems will deliver 4A to 5A and cost around £400. If you can face Hornby 's Elite , you get 2 controllers and 4A . The cheapest option is probably Hornby's e-link : a black box + Railmaster software, delivering the functionality of the Elite from a laptop screen. But I don't think you want that style of operation...)

 

NCE systems offer route macros , which will probably cover your point control needs from the handset. Some other brands offer similar facilities

 

Remember points signals etc will either be a (modest) extra drain on the system , unless you use motors/decoders running from an auxiliary supply

 

If you are running steam, the only functions you will ever need are for sound, so any non-sound locos simply need a plug-in decoder - functions become irrelevant

 

I assume that all your locos are fairly recent, and are DCC Ready with a socket?

[tigerburnie]

If for example I used one of these, is one enough or do I need two, one for each line or will this one unit power the whole layout via a bus bar and droppers and then select each individual loco as required?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/36466/gaugemaster-dcc06-any-scale-dcc06-prodigy-express-wifi-digital-control-system

[WIMorrison]

Now you’ve opened a real can of worms as everyone trots out their preferred system - preferred because that is what they purchased

[tigerburnie]

We cross posted there Ravenser, I do have some locos DCC ready and one has a chip fitted, so that one(a Hornby B1) would be ready to go, I would buy specific DCC locos in future with the chip and sound card already fitted, I have my eye on a Bachman smelly oil burning Deltic as we speak lol. Regarding the ampage, as the layout proposed is likely to have no more than one loco moving at a time, though a kettle may be hissing in the corner, I kind of hoped the above Gaugemaster might have been sufficient.

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, tigerburnie said:

We cross posted there Ravenser, I do have some locos DCC ready and one has a chip fitted, so that one(a Hornby B1) would be ready to go, I would buy specific DCC locos in future with the chip and sound card already fitted, I have my eye on a Bachman smelly oil burning Deltic as we speak lol. Regarding the ampage, as the layout proposed is likely to have no more than one loco moving at a time, though a kettle may be hissing in the corner, I kind of hoped the above Gaugemaster might have been sufficient.

 

Yes, a system like that should provide 5A. A loco will probably draw no more than 1A under full (stalled) load. Once running, they will draw a lot less current so a 5A system will go quite a long way.

 

To answer your previous question, you only need 1 of those. It can be broken down into 3 components; a command station, throttle & booster.

 

You need 1 & only 1 command station for a layout.

Boosters are normally 5A. If you have a large layout, you would split it into separate districts, each fed from a booster but all controlled by the same command station.

You can have multiple throttles (handsets) but these are usually capable of controlling more than 1 loco. More handsets would be useful if you have friends round for an operating session.

[Vecchio]

43 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Now you’ve opened a real can of worms as everyone trots out their preferred system - preferred because that is what they purchased

 

Not only, some people have experience with several systems. I think also here is a significant change over the time and tigerburnie is in the lucky situation that he can skip earlier generations.

I had for instance the Roco basic system (Lokmaus, only basic loco addresses, programming of higher CV codes restricted). It was working very well but still I was very happy when I changed to a Lenz LZV100 with LH100. Still a numeric system, but it does everything needed. Soon came sound decoders with 28 functions and also the Lenz saw its limits. It is still a good controller, I still have it, but I wouldn't swap a new, graphic symbol wireless control against it. The need of re-mapping function keys - so that every loco has the same function on the same key - you have with all numeric systems, may it be Lenz or NCE is now no longer necessary!

 

I use currently Z21 but there are other systems using graphic symbols for functions, so I will not suggest to buy what I have, but I would suggest to look  what is currently state of the art and doesn't cost an arm and a leg (So sadly a Zimo controller is excluded. Even there decoders are my first choice, the controller needs a different salary level...)

 

Best is to look around, may be to look at clubs, or at shows. Don't know where tigerburnie is located, if it is in the Midlands - the Milton Keynes model railway society runs 3 layouts where DCC is present, one is using Lenz LZV100 and LH100, one is using NCE and one is using a Z21. If tb is interested to have a look just send me a pm.

Vecchio

[DaveArkley]

2 minutes ago, Vecchio said:

Best is to look around, may be to look at clubs, or at shows. Don't know where tigerburnie is located, if it is in the Midlands - the Milton Keynes model railway society runs 3 layouts where DCC is present, one is using Lenz LZV100 and LH100, one is using NCE and one is using a Z21. If tb is interested to have a look just send me a pm.

Vecchio

 

 

And please look at the Digikeijs DR5000, in my view the best value pound for pound system out there. But that's my view, buy what suits you best.

 

Cheers

Dave