Two-road GWR goods shed operation

[Schooner]

Morning all,

 

Following the 'Knowledge' and 'Infrastructure' bits of the forum titles, I'm hoping this is the right place to ask a question about two-road goods sheds, as (I believe) not infrequently found on the GWR. My apologies if this is covered somewhere else, nothing came up in  couple of investigations of RMWeb using the search function. Admins please feel free to move as required. Anyway:

 

In short, I'd like to know why they were built, and how they were operated. 

 

My confusions stems from my general belief that a goods shed serves to provide a space where freight can be transferred from road to rail, by necessity at platform height. Where does a section of track within the shed but without platform access fit in to this? 

 

Attached as an example are a photo (1935) and plan (1924) of Bradford on Avon. It might be worth noting that originally the shed was on a loop, with both shed roads having access to the up line but only the northern (platform access) road continuing on into the loading dock, as per the 1906 OS. I'm hoping decent information on the interior fit-out of the shed may illuminate things, but I've yet to come across any...

 

All thoughts gratefully received!

 

Schooner

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Schooner
Dates for photo and survey corrected

[Fat Controller]

I've seen photos of a similar situation during the unloading of banana boats. Planks would be laid, either between wagon doors, or over the buffers. In the example you've given, the wagons on the track nearest the platform would be unloaded first. The wagons on the non-platformed platform would then be unloaded through the empty wagons. Reloading would commence on the outside road, then the platform load. I presume the logic is to avoid any shunting during loading and unloading.

[Schooner]

Thanks for the swift and helpful response  

 

Working the shed like that makes a lot of sense - double the capacity and an increase in efficiency for only a small increase in cost. I wonder if that capacity was a requirement for the town, or if it was built on spec...

 

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I've seen photos of a similar situation during the unloading of banana boats. Planks would be laid, either between wagon doors, or over the buffers. In the example you've given, the wagons on the track nearest the platform would be unloaded first. The wagons on the non-platformed platform would then be unloaded through the empty wagons. Reloading would commence on the outside road, then the platform load. I presume the logic is to avoid any shunting during loading and unloading.

 

13 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Thanks for the swift and helpful response  

 

Working the shed like that makes a lot of sense - double the capacity and an increase in efficiency for only a small increase in cost. I wonder if that capacity was a requirement for the town, or if it was built on spec...

 

This wasn't a former broad-gauge station, was it?. One interesting feature for me is that there seems to be only one track leaving the shed on the right-hand end.

[Schooner]

33 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

This wasn't a former broad-gauge station, was it?

 

Yes Sir, twin-track then too:

Such a cool photo (borrowed from here), which I've seen dated as 1870. Pre-1874 any road! So much going on and to unpick, wish I could find a higher-res version

 

 

33 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

...there seems to be only one track leaving the shed on the right-hand end.

But once there were two! The broad-gauge trackplan survived the conversion to standard (1887 and 1901 1:2,500 OS):

...just not to the conversion of aircraft into photographic vehicles! Interestingly though, the line of that northern road out of the shed is clearly visible on the aerial photo, I think.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Schooner

[Fat Controller]

I think you're right about the track-plan having survived from BG days. It was a big wool town when the railway was built, wasn't it, which might account for the size of the shed; wool being valable and sensitive to the weather (after fulling, at least), would be stored under cover.

 

[Schooner]

Small goods yard, large goods shed - makes sense that it was for a particular industry, and you're absolutely right that wool was still the main industry in Bradford...although by the time the railway arrived in 1857 (the shed and station having been completed in '48...), it was on the way out and factories were being converted or left derelict, the final one closing in 1905.

 

Looking at the smoke marks in Britain From Above photos from the '30s, it seems both shed roads got about equal usage but I suppose that's about right if one was for shed platform and one went on the loading bay, which I can see being more efficient than the original plan where the bay and shed platform are both on the same road.  

Edited August 8, 2019 by Schooner

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I think you're right about the track-plan having survived from BG days. It was a big wool town when the railway was built, wasn't it, which might account for the size of the shed; wool being valable and sensitive to the weather (after fulling, at least), would be stored under cover.

 

But the b.g period photo shows what looks like vales of wool stacked outside    Although I do know what you meant - if outdoors it could be sheeted.

 

In the early railway days vans for goods traffic weren't so common so access between vehicle son adjacent roads would have been easier but I do wonder about there being sufficient space to open van doors to allow access across to the outer siding?  But having said that there were a number of goods sheds with this sort of layout (Challow immediately comes to mind and that too was an unaltered broad gauge shed).

[Schooner]

If anyone was going to give us an authoritative "two-road sheds were built when..." I thought it would be Mike! Even if vans were less common, they (and tarpaulins) are surely cheaper than a larger shed...?

 

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

...what looks like vales of wool stacked outside...

 ...or stone? I was wondering why both the loading gantry and the crane, thinking perhaps they were for two different jobs, but both seem to be using lifting shears...could it be that stone traffic was heavy enough to justify the building of the gantry soley to load the southern road at the same time as the crane could be loading the northern? Still doesn't help with what would be going on inside the shed, but one step at a time

 

Thanks for all the info so far

[Harlequin]

I can't shed (haha) any light on operations but would just point out that Newbury had a similar double road shed. So you might be able to find some relevant info from that source.

 

Originally built for broad gauge, dating from 1848, it survived the redevelopment of the station in 1908. There's a 1904 photo of the interior in "A history of the Berks and Hants line". Two wagons visible, both on the inner road next to the platform.

 

[bécasse]

Wagon loads wouldn't necessarily have had to be handled on the non-platform road. Until freight traffic on the railways died away in the mid- to late-1950s, it was commonplace for wagons to be shunted without the use of locomotives. Capstans or railway or traders' horses were once the typical "motive power", but post-WWII pinch-bars probably became the most common tool.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But the b.g period photo shows what looks like vales of wool stacked outside    Although I do know what you meant - if outdoors it could be sheeted.

 

In the early railway days vans for goods traffic weren't so common so access between vehicle son adjacent roads would have been easier but I do wonder about there being sufficient space to open van doors to allow access across to the outer siding?  But having said that there were a number of goods sheds with this sort of layout (Challow immediately comes to mind and that too was an unaltered broad gauge shed).

The shape of those stacked objects next to the crane seem more angular and irregular than wool bales might. Could they be rough-hewn blocks of stone?

As to the van doors, could these be opened and secured before the vans were propelled into the shed? This had to be done at Dyffryn Works, Morriston; the height of the new loading platform was designed with sliding door vans (which never materialised) in mind. When cupboard-door vans were used, it was found that, when loaded, the bottom of the doors were below platform level, and couldn't be opened or closed if loaded.

[Schooner]

Thanks Harlequin, I'll do some digging into Newbury too (added to the list under Challow, any more spring to mind for anyone?) to see if some determining factors can be teased out

 

Sort of related (it's not really related), I've just discovered Kelly's Directory and seen that the Midland Railway Company are listed as local carriers for BoA, and maintained a goods depot there (9 Margaret St, Richard Laytham agent...the Directories are amazing!). Does this mean MR sent a ? [open wagon? covered van? road vehicle?] between Queen Square, Bath and BoA*? Any pointers for where to look for more information on this practice? The things you never knew you never knew...

 

Thanks all

Edited August 8, 2019 by Schooner
*On reflection, all options via rail seem unreasonably complicated, even for the period. A wagon to Bath Spa then by road to Queen Square would be possible I suppose, but perhaps more difficult than just popping it on a cart and driving it to the MR goods

[The Stationmaster]

Oh dear - does this mean that I have now got to try and find the pictures of Challow goods shed that I took getting on for 60 years ago? 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I saw a photo the other day of the inside of one of these double-track GW sheds. Remarkably, there was a part of the loading area that could be swung out as a sort of pontoon to reach wagons on the outer track.

Will try to remember where I  saw it.

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

...I have now got to try and find the pictures of Challow goods shed...

 

Have to? Now? Certainly not!

 

...but if you happened to come across them at some point I'm sure I wouldn't be the only interested party...  

 

34 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

...there was a part of the loading area that could be swung out as a sort of pontoon to reach wagons on the outer track...

A-ha! Not the photo from the Berks and Hants book Harlequin mentioned then...? I suspect there was no single approach to the interior fit out any more than there was to the exterior, but it's all interesting stuff 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Schooner
PS: Mike, it's impressive to even have that as an option - how do you catalogue your records?

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Have to? Now? Certainly not!

 

...but if you happened to come across them at some point I'm sure I wouldn't be the only interested party...  

 

A-ha! Not the photo from the Berks and Hants book Harlequin mentioned then...? I suspect there was no single approach to the interior fit out any more than there was to the exterior, but it's all interesting stuff 

The problem is that a lot of my early stuff isn't catalogued and some of it is somewhere different from most of it as a consequence of two house moves over the years.  Colour slides aren't too difficult to sort because there aren't many of them - I couldn't afford the film until the late 1960s/early'70s and a lot of really interesting stuff had gone by then.   The quality is poor in some of the early slides but you'll find some decent ones in the somewhat misnamed first link below

 

Fortunately I've got most of the 35mil b&w negs safely secured as are the few 120 negs (most of which have had their prints posted on RMweb as there weren't too many of them.  You'll find some of my posted pics (but not Challow) in these threads -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57713-a-fist-full-of-permits-or-ive-now-got-a-scanner/

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66924-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-1/&/topic/66924-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-1/?hl=%2Bths%2B%2Bstationmaster%2B%2Bgoes%2B%2Btrain%2B%2Bspotting

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67059-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-2/

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Harlequin]

Another one for the list: Ross on Wye.

 

http://www.ross-on-wye.com/index.php?page=ross_541-Old_pictures_and_photos_from_Ross&pg=3

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

An interesting example at Par where each of the two lines through the shed was a dead-end siding, each facing in different directions. So there would certainly have had to be some method of unloading wagons on the outer track.

[DCB]

I looked at a Signal Box diagram from 1950 and was amazed that the yard entry is a facing point off the Up line, no trap or H/S just a couple of catch blades on the two turnouts nearest the entry.

I bet the knowledgeable at exhibitions would point out how un-prototypical that was !

Probably stems from the fact it started as single track Broad Gauge, and they didn't want to move  the goods shed if they could avoid it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I looked at a Signal Box diagram from 1950 and was amazed that the yard entry is a facing point off the Up line, no trap or H/S just a couple of catch blades on the two turnouts nearest the entry.

I bet the knowledgeable at exhibitions would point out how un-prototypical that was !

Probably stems from the fact it started as single track Broad Gauge, and they didn't want to move  the goods shed if they could avoid it.

 

I take it you are referring to Bradford.

 

Clearly a move at some point to simplify the pointwork and to not have it on the bridge. I would suspect that normal practice would not have been to run a goods train in the facing direction into the goods yard but to run round on the main line and shunt into the yard.

 

But, as you say, an interesting prototype and very suitable for a simple layout operation.

 

[The Stationmaster]

54 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

I looked at a Signal Box diagram from 1950 and was amazed that the yard entry is a facing point off the Up line, no trap or H/S just a couple of catch blades on the two turnouts nearest the entry.

I bet the knowledgeable at exhibitions would point out how un-prototypical that was !

Probably stems from the fact it started as single track Broad Gauge, and they didn't want to move  the goods shed if they could avoid it.

I'm pretty sure the reason it was laid out like that was because it was not possible to put the trailing crossover on the new underbridge and it couldn't go on the station side of the bridge because there wasn't any room to connect to the yard sidings.  Hence it was laid out in the unusual way that it was with a facing connection instead of a slip road off a trailing crossover.  The yard of course would have normally been shunted by a train heading towards Bath, particularly so as Westbury was the serving yard for Bradford-On-Avon. 

 

The yard sidings are very clearly trapped with what were almost certainly single tongue traps - very typical GWR trapping for yard sidings and of course a similar arrangement can be seen to this day at Bodmin in the trapping of the engine shed roads.

Edited August 9, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[DCB]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm pretty sure the reason it was laid out like that was because it was not possible to put the trailing crossover on the new underbridge and it couldn't go on the station side of the bridge because there wasn't any room to connect to the yard sidings.  Hence it was laid out in the unusual way that it was with a facing connection instead of a slip road off a trailing crossover.  The yard of course would have normally been shunted by a train heading towards Bath, particularly so as Westbury was the serving yard for Bradford-On-Avon. 

 

The yard sidings are very clearly trapped with what were almost certainly single tongue traps - very typical GWR trapping for yard sidings and of course a similar arrangement can be seen to this day at Bodmin in the trapping of the engine shed roads.

You are right, I just found the reference.   I reckon they decided the points on the underbridge were not a good idea,  it must have been ropey by 1950 as it had to be completely renewed in the 1960s. The Goods shed was obviously repaired at some stage radically changing it's appearance.

The station platform appears to have been  lengthened at some stage leaving no room for the trailing connection off the up line

[The Stationmaster]

The layout shown in the bottom drawing came into use in 1947 - probably around August or September of that year.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Chippenham main line station had a double road shed. Two cranes operated inside but I think the outer road was also used as a loop or passing road to the yard due to the restricted space around the station and how the 'on/it'd yard would have been accessed from the main line, especially as Bath Stone Firm had a siding at the far end of the yard.