Jub45565 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Having relocated from Wells to South Bristol last Easter, I didnt get around to much in the way of modelling for a while, and when I did it was NG so spent my time on the NGRM forum. Christmas brought about a reignition of enthusiasm for some standard gauge, so the following have been worked on during January: 4F - Comet chassis, with removable spring hangers. Lima ex-LMS 42' CCT - 5522 bogies constructed. Greenwich couplings (Bemo style) with a loop at one end only added to a few items of stock. I had decided on 3 link and screw couplings, but was never fully convinced due to the problems of gangwayed stock - especially NPCS which I wouldnt be able to deal with having to be in fixed rakes. I started playing with Greenwich's for my narrow gauge stuff, and this made me consider them and have been convinced. I will add some photos later, just posting this to kick me into gear while being bored to death by Villa Man City. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 I resprayed the CCT a couple of years ago, and havnt as yet done anything else. I do have the flush glazing pack in stock, and will attend to the buffers and brake handle wheels as a minimum. This is the current state of the 4F chassis, awaiting coupling rods which will be pivoted at the knuckle using lace making brass pins. These two hopefully show the design I have used to make the spring hangers detachable. I might incorporate pickups onto this too in time, I havnt fully decided on these as yet though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Todays work has been on the 5522 LMS bogies. These have the brake pull mechanisms as well as the shoes, so these have been fitted. The main issue I have had with this set is to do with the way it is compensated. This is done a bit like the MJT method, though is generally better as it doesnt use a brass rod across the centre and so the two halves can float much more reely. The problem with this though is that the two halves are not well enough restrained and so the wheelsets can fall out. My way around this has been to tie the two halves together at both ends, using a lace making pin bent into a U shape. Two holes are drilled, one in each half of the bogie, and the U is soldered into 1 hole. The pin in the other hole is free to move, so that the compensation still works, but prevents any sideways movement of the two halves independantly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kempenfelt Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Nice work Pete! Keep up the supply of pic's and interesting to see how you've constructed your keeperplate. A bit more simplistic (and very probably for the best!) than what i've done on my Jinty! Btw, if you fancy getting involved with one of the local P4 groups PM me, i'm involved with both the Bristol and Glevum groups and have links to the Mendip group (based just oustide of Wells) Best Wishes! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Thanks for the comments Paul - you have a PM! I think my initial idea was along the same lines as what you have done, as I remember seeing Morgan's thread a while ago. This was altered to suit the frame spacers I had already installed, and to ignore pickups for the first instance - though this decision may well come back to bite! As an aside, this is my second chassis, having previously built a London Road Models Midland 3F. That one was compensated rather than sprung, and used EMGS split axles. When I first got this running I had issues with one of the axles clicking shut and shorting the two parts together, which put me off - though thinking back it was probably not quite quartered correctly, and the axle has since been fixed and so the chassis is running ok. I will probably replace that chassis eventually, maybe as an introduction to CSBs. Must get this one finished first though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 These two hopefully show the design I have used to make the spring hangers detachable. I might incorporate pickups onto this too in time, I havnt fully decided on these as yet though. Neat work, it is well worth allowing the wheels to be detachable by allowing the hornblocks to drop out; not something that I have always done, but I will be going forward. I take it you are on S4web? Alan Goodwillie's loco thread (My link & My link) and the couple on CSB's (My link & My link) are really useful if you are not aware of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Hi Mark, I agree about removable hornblocks - it will make the chassis serviceable in the future as well as aiding the cleaning painting process initially, so well worth the effort in my mind. Thanks for those links - I am on S4web, but hadnt come across those. Theres quite a bit of reading to get through! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted January 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2011 This is my solution to removable springs. Each is attached with 10BA bolts. Arthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 That looks like a good method Arthur, and pretty much what I intend to do for future builds - This one has been a bit of a bodge job as I followed the Comet examples of where to add the frame spacers before considering this! Could I ask what flavour of geabox you intend to use on that build? I can see that a vertical gearbox and horizontal motor should happily fit between the mounting assemblies you have there, but a horizontal gearbox and vertical motor (such as my 4F, and 3F) looks to conflict. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ArthurK Posted January 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2011 That looks like a good method Arthur, and pretty much what I intend to do for future builds - This one has been a bit of a bodge job as I followed the Comet examples of where to add the frame spacers before considering this! Could I ask what flavour of geabox you intend to use on that build? I can see that a vertical gearbox and horizontal motor should happily fit between the mounting assemblies you have there, but a horizontal gearbox and vertical motor (such as my 4F, and 3F) looks to conflict. I am standardising on HighLevel gearboxes of various types (if that can be called 'standardising'). Depending on loco size. I use an appropriate Mashima flatcan. Small locos use the 1220 or 1020. The larger ones use 1420 or 1430, the biggest that I can fit. The Q5 in the photo uses the hignlevel compact plus driving on the third axle. The motor (1420 with end shaft removed) is near vertical in the firebox and completely hidden from view. Hope this helps Arthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for those links - I am on S4web, but hadnt come across those. Theres quite a bit of reading to get through! Indeed, but there is lots in them worth knowing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I am standardising on HighLevel gearboxes of various types (if that can be called 'standardising'). Arthur The GWR and BR seemed to get away with that sort of description . They are very good gearboxes so its certainly a good range to specify, Martin Finney is doing the same now Portescap are effectively collectors items (or the prices are anyway)! Nice to see you back active Pete, I enjoyed following your previous workbench topics . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks for that diagram Arthur, I had forgotten the roadrunner series could be built like that. Cheers Craig, you've certainly been busy in the meantime! I had a look at one of your chassis' as built by Paul last night, and very good it looks. It was my first visit to the Glevum group meeting, and they all seem a good bunch with a lot of expertise. Seeing Barrow Road in the flesh was an excellent end to the evening too. I have built up the coupling rods on the 4F, and when Ive got it free running (there is one slight tight spot currently) I will get a photo done. The rods have been pivoted at the knuckle with a lace makers pin fed in through the front overlayer and soldered into the rear, using the old paper method to give a bit of freedom and prevent myself from soldering the whole lot up solid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Cheers Craig, you've certainly been busy in the meantime! I had a look at one of your chassis' as built by Paul last night, and very good it looks. It was my first visit to the Glevum group meeting, and they all seem a good bunch with a lot of expertise. Seeing Barrow Road in the flesh was an excellent end to the evening too. Ah glad you had a good time, Paul would have told me all about it but I ignored his MSN message as its was 12:30 and I was tired . Not as busy as i'd have liked to have been but its getting there; they look better when they aren't built by someone with more thumbs than fingers ( to Paul there). Hopefully when Robin gets the track running you can have your 4F pottering about on shed . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Lol, no comment! Yes, there was a brief discussion about Holbeck locos making it down on the Devonian, though the chances of my 4F being numerically correct are minimal - I think both of those in mind (44216 R/H drive and 44055 L/H drive) were long standing Manningham locos. Im sure a few guest appearances would be called for, but I may have to rethink my coupling policy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 A quick twiddle with a broach and the 4F chassis is rolling around very nicely, so the next steps are to get the loctite out for the crankpins, and get the ody to fit the chassis. This is easier said than done, as I had previously packed parts of the body to accept a perseverence chassis several moons ago, and so this will need removing again. The 3F hasnt had any work done on it in quite a long time, but it was taken to the Glevum meeting yesterday in the hope of generating a bit of conversation and getting me to return it to the workbench sometime. Hopefully I will finish it before Bachmann release theirs! Other than detailing the loco body, the main thing I need to do is pluck up the courage, and find a suitable location, to crack out the airbrush which has been patiently waiting for me to play with. One other thing I have picked up on is that my camera produces far better results when allowed to produce 4000x3000 shots and having these rescaled to 800x600 on the computer, rather than just taking them at 800x600 to start with... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hopefully this will show the knuckle joint a bit clearer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I am now at the stage where the chassis is rolling happily with all crankpins loctited on and the final drive gear also loctited. However, the 1424 motor is fractionally too tall in the firebox, and stops the springing on the driven axle from working properly. This will be solved by getting my hands on a 1420. Brake gear can be sorted in the meantime, but Im not sure how to fit the pull rods while still allowing me to drop out the axles. Im sure Im missing something glaringly obvious (other than omiting the pull rods, I dont want to do that). I could add washers or something just inside the brake shoes on the cross beams, so as to allow them to spring in and out of the shoes as the pastic RTR offerings do, but Im not sure that the brass shoes will have quite the same flexibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hi Pete, Why don't you consider making the brake gear removable from the top? Instead of using solid wire for the upper brake cross shafts open up the holes and use a piece of fine tube. 1.3mm O/D by 0.7mm bore is about right. Cut them over length and solder in place. Trim back with a piercing saw and then finish to final length with a file. I use a piece of plywood, of the appropriate thickness, with a 1.5mm hole drilled in as a filing gauge. Place over the tube end and hold against the frame whilst filing back the bit of tube that sticks out. Repeat for the other 5 tube ends and they will all protrude the same distance from the frame. The protrusion needs to take account of the thickness of the brake hangers and blocks so that they sit about mid way on the wheel tyre width. Ream the holes in the brake hangers with a taper broach to make them a close sliding fit on the top holes but a tight fit in the bottom holes when a piece of 0.7mm wire is pushed through. The tight fit in the lower holes will help with lining up and soldering when you need an extra hand. A tight fit on the brake pull rod(s) is also required. Assemble the hangers to the tube at the top using a piece of long 0.7mm wire and then thread the pull rods and lower hanger holes onto a similar length of wire. Line up the lower cross shaft by eye so it is square to the frames and solder up the bottom cross shaft joints to left and right brake hangers. The first pair of brake hangers is the trickiest bit but after that the whole assembly gets some stiffness when the next pair of hangers is threaded on and the pull rods dictate the spacing. Only at this stage do you need to line up the brake blocks with the wheels. Once all is soldered up the top wires can be pulled out of the tube and the brake assembly can be removed as one piece. When the chassis is running and painted up the brake assembly can be fitted with 3 short lengths of 0.7mm wire. A dab of shellac mixed with a bit of matt black paint is enough to retain the brakes in place. If they need to be removed some solvent on the upper pivots will loosen the shellac enough to pull/push the wires out. I've attached a few pictures of the K1 chassis I bought along to the meeting last week. Unfortunately I didn't bring the brake assembly. If I had known etc..... Cheers......Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 With my 14xx I just clip the brakes into the frames with a short length of wire protruding from the end of the tube which is attached to the brakes. The system Morgan has described would make it truly drop out though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for that Morgan, I think I understood from the text but the photos made it perfectly clear! Neat looking solution. I will have a play, if I can find some suitable tube! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Right then, Ive applied the brakes! Hopefully not the the project... First I reamed the brake hanger holes in the sideframes to allow a tube to pass through, this tube being 1.2mm OD, 0.6mm ID. A 0.5mm piece of tube was used to hang a brakeshoe off the end of this, so as to gauge to the centre of the wheel tread (as this point the bracket on the Comet shoe was left on, although later removed). This tube was then soldered to one frame, uppermost in the photo. The 0.5mm rod was used to align a short piece running through the second sideframe so that that one could be aligned with a brakeshoe as well as the first piece of rod. (this first one was over length as I didnt know how much would be wasted filing off the cut, as this was done with sidecutters - I dont have a pipe cutter). Once all six small tubes (thick washers? just where is the crossover...) were in place, the brakegear was assembled with 0.5mm wire through the top brackets, and 0.7mm in the bottom. The bottom of the shoes were then all soldered, and adjusted as necessary. The top 0.5mm wire was then replaced with drastically shortened 0.55mm lace making pins which were soldered to the shoes. This follows Craigs method, as these will be permanently attached and clip in and out of the rods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Oh, and no, I havnt finished cleaning up the solder joints! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Hi Pete, Success! What you have done there looks great. What I forgot to mention in my previous post is that, when required, I have also done the short pin method on the upper holes. Looking at your 4F chassis it was probably the best way to go because a continuous cross shaft at the top would probably foul the gearbox and motor you have installed. What I have found with experience is that you tend to plan out the construction and positioning of frame spacers, springing or compensation beam fulcrums, motor and gearbox combinations before even making a start on the build. Sometimes satisfying all the requirements can be a challenge but I find that part of the fun. Cheers....Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 The 4F is now painted and running, this is now awaiting a new front bufferbeam. The loco body had previously been hacked about to fit to a perseverance chassis, which wasnt well designed and resulted in the loco sitting a few mm too high, and in the process of re-modifying the body I broke the front bufferbeam. I have a few things I want to design on an etch, so might draw one up, but I dont know what timescale this will be done in, so I might source a replacement elsewhere. I was considering asking SE Finecast at Nottingham if they could supply the casting from their kit separately. I'll get some updated photos up soon. In other work, the 42' CCT has been back on the workbench. The repaint I did a few yeas ago has been stripped off with acetone and handrails etc are going to be replaced. So far I have cut out most of the floor and adding braes to allow the body to be screw fitted to the chassis, with the clip of the clips removed leaving these as locating pegs. The windows have been cut from the roof moulding, and the roof will be fixed permanently to the body. This is now sat on Bill Bedford bogies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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