Andy M Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Hi all, As part of my ongoing project to model the Great Western TPO (London-Bristol-Penzance) formation in its 1958 configuration, my attention has now turned to the K40 Brake vehicle contained within the rake. I know that W39, W81 and W1177 were allocated to TPO duties during the 1940's and continued on the Western Region until the introduction of Mk1 TPO stock in 1959, when they were transfered with some of the Sorting Vans to the London Midland Region for use on the 'West Coast Postal' til c1966/7. Below is the only image I have of the trio, showing W39W at Newton Abbot in August 1957. This clearly shows the offset TPO corridor connection unusualy fitted to the retained bow end. Does anybody know if the offset connection modification was made to both ends of the vehicle or just one? The GW TPO ran with dedicated Siphon G's marshalled behind the K40's and one offset and one standard connector would have allowed through access to the Siphons. If anyone has any extra details of these vehicles I would be most grateful to hear from you before I start work. For those interested I want to build one in lined maroon, using the Comet Models K40 as a basis. Regards, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 It was one end only to act as a 'converter' with standard gangway stock that was dedicated to the TPO trains. K40 full brakes (81 & 1177) were rebuilt with offset gangway at one end only in 1937 to run with GW TPO to Penzance. Your view of no 39 was a later rebuild to same spec in 1949. GPO records also show payments made for clerestory K17 no 1125 as the spare vehicle for 81/1177. As these were built with offset connectors, I have yet to find photo evidence of this vehicle with a central corridor at one end. The three K40's were not the first 'converters' on the GWR. The original clerestory TPO trains had a diagram K9 that provided the same function (Blacksmith/Mallard produce a kit of this). A friend of mine has a full view of one of the K40's taken at Long Rock. He is away at the moment but I will get a scan from him when he returns. I too used the Comet on an old Airfix B set body to run in my GWR 30's TPO train made from Hammond sides. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 Mike, Thanks very much for the information and prompt reply. That single end corridor conversion confirms my suspicion of these vehicles and just adds to the interest. That image from Long Rock would be most useful as mine is nearly fully obscured. Thanks again, regards, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I have been sent a link that may be of interest. It contains the complete TPO train formations including carriage numbers for 1957 & 1961 http://www.alextrack.co.uk/railways/carriage_workings/west_of_england_tpo.shtml Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I have a spreadsheet of K40 allocations, here are the relevant entries and the notes associated with them. 1177 10.10 Postal Paddington & Penzance 26 Dec 1952 39 Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Plymouth Apr 1933 Erased Feb 1938 81 10.10 pm Postal Paddington to Penzance 3 Dec 1955 Fitted with side gangways 1 Mar 1938. Transferred to LMR, prefixed M W suffix 28 May 1960 81 mentions "gangways" (plural) but I do not know if that is accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 K40 Photo dropped of at my house this morning. Here is a full view of 81 taken at Long Rock, Penzance whilst the up TPO was being marshalled, in August 1952. It was to become M81W in 1960 when it was transferred to the London Midland Region. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Mike, That's fantastic........and please thank your friend for forwarding the image. There are a couple of colour shots of the GW TPO at Penzance in the new 'Great Western Coaches in Colour' offering from Noodle Books. They do open up the old colour perception/reproduction debate though, as the whole ensemble looks much too red for the carmine shade that they obviously should be on the date photographed. I presumed that the K40's were painted maroon along with the rest of the TPO vehicles from1956 onwards, and that none of the ex-GWR vehicles received the 1960 Post Office Red that the Mk1 coaches were finished in. Thanks again. Regards, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 One curiosity. GWR bow end vehicles are usually fitted with suspended corridor connections (as 81 is at the opposite end). I assume, due to the connector having to be longer on the outer side compare to the inner side, compensating for the bow shape, a different arrangement was necessary. I have not found any other bow ended vehicle with scissors connectors. Comparing to Andy's shot of 39 the scissors is clearly larger on the outside than the inside. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 The corridor connectors used on all the Collett and Hawksworth TPO's were unique in that they were squatter than standard designs. As such I believe the suspension bars were not required due to the reduction in weight, again unique on a scissor connector. It appears that due to the K40's retaining their bow ends a further special modification was required with, as Mike has eluded to, the connector being thinner on the inside. This must have greatly reduced the compression depth available once coupled. I have a 247 Developments TPO connector etch on the workbench at the moment that will be modified for its specialised use on the K40. I'll post images when the mod is in place. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
exet1095 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Interesting photos, and another conversion in my growing "to do" pile. W39W is clearly unlined, presumably in carmine, but W81W shows lining and may or may not be plain carmine, or carmine and cream. You look at the picture and take a guess! Does anyone know if any of the three vehicles were in carmine and cream, or were they all simply in carmine? Likewise were they in plain brown before repainting, or in GW chocolate and cream? Thanks, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 W39W is clearly unlined, presumably in carmine, but W81W shows lining and may or may not be plain carmine, or carmine and cream. You look at the picture and take a guess! Does anyone know if any of the three vehicles were in carmine and cream, or were they all simply in carmine? Likewise were they in plain brown before repainting, or in GW chocolate and cream? I am not convinced that W81 is lined. It looks to me more like the light catching the waist-height beading. If you look at the picture of W39, you can see the beading clearly for what it is due to the different angle the light is falling on it from. The pictures in Russell suggest that the K40s were painted plainly and so went from all-over brown to crimson and then Maroon. IIRC they were built as cross-country stock and this may explain why they tended not to receive fully decorate liveries. I am not 100% certain on this and if people have pictures of K40s in choc'n'cream or carmine'n'cream I will happily stand corrected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted April 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 29, 2012 Did any chocolate and cream evidence come to light? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Did any chocolate and cream evidence come to light? Nothing for those specific vehicles. At least one K40 (W53) received Hawksworth style GWR livery complete with double lining in 1948. It seems odd for a milk train brake van to receive such an elaborate livery after nationalisation. My guess is that Swindon were being sentimental and slapping choc'n'cream on everything that came through while they still could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 but W81W shows lining and may or may not be plain carmine, or carmine and cream. You look at the picture and take a guess! From the fact that the lettering on the upper part of the sides is lighter than the surrounding body, I'd suggest that it is in unlined carmine, with the angle of the lighting making the upper part look lighter and highlighting the beading strip. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Hi All, I have just spotted this thread and it may be of interest to Andy and others that Collett full brake Dia. K40 No. 1184 is under heavy rebuild at Didcot and will be recieving a flat end and offset gangway as per the above to run with Dia. L23 TPO No. 814 in exactly the fashion described above. It is right at the back of the public gallery that contains the Centenary Diner and VIP saloon so it is accessible, if a little skeletal, at the moment! If you express an interest I am sure any of the Carriage and Wagon department that happen to be on hand will talk you through it and show you what they are up to. All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Castle, Thanks for notice of what the GWS are up to with W1184, I was not aware of this conversion. Interesting that you mention a flat end, as the K40's retained the bow end. I'm due a trip to Didcot soon so I'll keep an eye out for it. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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