Michael Delamar Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 hi guys what crane is this? Exhibition Jcn by edgehillsignalman, on Flickr also, whats the first wagon? and finally, 46503, was she black or green? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 hi guys what crane is this? http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/5919903738/in/contacts/ also, whats the first wagon? and finally, 46503, was she black or green? The first wagon's a Bolster E- can't help with the other questions,I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 thank you Brian it seems it has something on it, particularly interesting to me as I have an interest in the rail trains that went to and from Fazakerley around this period. so id love to know more Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2011 Having blown the pic up a bit I can see the load on the leading wagon includes a piece of tubular steel (well it looks like tubular steel) and what looks like a couple of parallel steel channel beams sitting on top of something else as a sort of base. I suggest it might therefore be part of a bracket signal with the tube being a doll - it looks about the right diameter - and the steel channel beams being the gallery of a bracket signal inverted and sitting on top of the gallery decking. The presence of a crane could then be taken as having been there to recover the signal and load the pieces onto the adjacent BB - sound plausible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I would agree Mike, especially with its destination being Fazakerley where there was a signal works. the 4 longtitudinal beams are puzzling me, as Ive not seen a pic of a Bolster E with them, although Im no wagon expert at all. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I would agree Mike, especially with its destination being Fazakerley where there was a signal works. the 4 longtitudinal beams are puzzling me, as Ive not seen a pic of a Bolster E with them, although Im no wagon expert at all. Mike Could they be 'spreader beams', used when the crane has to lift a long, flexible, load (such as a part of a point)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Im not sure they look like they are made for the wagon??? also, just wanted to point out, it'll be no surprise to many but Ive never noticed the additional smokebox door lamp brackets on a 2mt like 46503 here before. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 always consult the bible http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbbe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Im not sure they look like they are made for the wagon??? also, just wanted to point out, it'll be no surprise to many but Ive never noticed the additional smokebox door lamp brackets on a 2mt like 46503 here before. Mike Do you mean 'longitudinal', Michael, or 'Traverse'? If the latter, then they're the bolsters, which look much larger than they do on other Bogie Bolsters, due to the relatively short length of the wagon (about 32'; the Bolster C being 45' and the D 50' IIRC). The bolsters were movable, with six potential locations for the four bolsters- they located on sockets on the outside of the wagon. I wonder if Dapol could be persuaded to use the 'Turbot' underframe to make a Bolster E... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ressaldar Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 also, just wanted to point out, it'll be no surprise to many but Ive never noticed the additional smokebox door lamp brackets on a 2mt like 46503 here before. Mike the answer is in the caption - ex Southern Region - all Southern locos had six lamp brackets for route indication purposes. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Husband Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I think the crane is either a Cowans Sheldon or a Coles, probably steam powered going by the age of the picture. Capacity probably between 40 and 70 tons. Hope that helps (: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The crane looks remarkably like this one, also in the Bible. Thomas Smith Rodley heavy deisel crane. As for the load on the Bolster E, is there a bit of lattice post strapped on top of whatever the rest of the girderwork is ? Looks like there's a mess van/coach at the back which no-one has mentioned so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The crane looks remarkably like this one, also in the Bible. Thomas Smith Rodley heavy deisel crane. As for the load on the Bolster E, is there a bit of lattice post strapped on top of whatever the rest of the girderwork is ? Looks like there's a mess van/coach at the back which no-one has mentioned so far. Thanks to Michael for drawing attention to this interesting series of pictures. The vans in the far left look very interesting! Yes I would agree, not necessarily this crane but very similar - 1418, 1419 and 1420 are all similar. It is a pity that the jib cannot be seen, but the runners look like a pair of short wagons - so quite possibly similar to those used with 1420 nearly 20 years later - http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/singlebolster/h3aa2de7c#h3aa2de7c http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/singlebolster/h3aa2de7c#h321b03d4 I haven't scanned the jib carrier for 1420, which is DB736979 - A conflat A. This also fits because the sides of the jib carrier in the photo look very low, and lower than the intermediate runner. These cranes were Diesel Mechanical. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 thanks everyone, certainly is an interesting series of photos. its an area ive never seen any shots of before and every line seen in the shot has been wiped away and the train interests me too. . The vans in the far left look very interesting! Paul Bartlett because of whats painted on them? they are in the sidings of Crawfords biscuit factory, there is cine footage of the fireless loco they had there shunting the vans, which looked to me to be ordinary shock vans, in the series of pics he has a shot of a van being shunted into there. I only know the basics of wagons and vans so you guys know more should be able to tell what it is. great having such knowledgable people on here. http://www.flickr.co...57626973003979/ MIke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 The crane looks remarkably like this one, also in the Bible. Thomas Smith Rodley heavy deisel crane. zooming in on the picture, can see the first letters SM of SMITH RODLEY so I think your bang on. I wonder if its actually one that was based at Fazakerley, will have a look through shots of the yard Ive got, also may see it on the Grand National footage along railway straight. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 thanks everyone, certainly is an interesting series of photos. its an area ive never seen any shots of before and every line seen in the shot has been wiped away and the train interests me too. because of whats painted on them? they are in the sidings of Crawfords biscuit factory, there is cine footage of the fireless loco they had there shunting the vans, which looked to me to be ordinary shock vans, in the series of pics he has a shot of a van being shunted into there. I only know the basics of wagons and vans so you guys know more should be able to tell what it is. great having such knowledgable people on here. http://www.flickr.co...57626973003979/ MIke Mike I had looked at the 3F photo and the LMS ply van (like http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan/e2c3c1b0c ), but had not noticed the mention of Crawfords biscuits. In the 2MT photograph those on the very extreme left look to have two horizontal strips and it was those I was looking at (and yes the large branding). Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 could the branding be the white shockvan stripes but because its so far away looks like a company logo? ones on the cinefilm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 could the branding be the white shockvan stripes but because its so far away looks like a company logo? ones on the cinefilm Michael. Yes I agree, Palshocvans http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalshocvan/hfbf330b#hfbf330b Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 I dont think they are available as kits are they? be nice if they did have company logos on them, like circle cement for example. I need some vans for swan st so may model them. I like the works train too, but think thats too much for me as scratchbuild but the bogie e wagon is interesting. another question about the crane, what colour would it be? grey? Ive got a few shots of Fazakerley yard, I think they had around 4 cranes. but the shots ive got they are too far away to see what they are, but look a similar type. can see them on the old grand national clips aswel, they always seem parked with the jibs up, would that be because they didnt have a set match wagon to them? Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I dont think they are available as kits are they? be nice if they did have company logos on them, like circle cement for example. I need some vans for swan st so may model them. I like the works train too, but think thats too much for me as scratchbuild but the bogie e wagon is interesting. Drawing here (as well as in Bartlett et al) Silsbury, Roger & Mann, Trevor., (1983) The 30 ton Bogie Bolster E. Model Railway Constructor vol. 50 (part 587) pp 165 - 169. Drawings - Bogie bolster E diag. 1/479 ; Uncoded Coil rebuild ; Bogie coil P; Bogie coil P with ex BEV bolsters another question about the crane, what colour would it be? grey? Ive got a few shots of Fazakerley yard, I think they had around 4 cranes. but the shots ive got they are too far away to see what they are, but look a similar type. can see them on the old grand national clips as well, they always seem parked with the jibs up, would that be because they didnt have a set match wagon to them? Mike A guess from other photographs is that it would have been in grey. These Civil engineers cranes do not seem to have been painted in any specific way - unless someone knows different. They don't seem to have been painted the same as engineering stock - which at the period of the photograph would have been black. My experience of the CE yards where they mainly worked was that they were left separated from their runners, simply ready for use on Monday morning. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The cranes were used for lifting jobs inside the yards as well as going out on renewals, which might be why you saw them with the jibs raised. On occasion, they were used to move wagons around the yards as well- I believe one survived without its jib as a yard shunter into the 1980s. The bogie flats behind the crane look to be 'Salmon' of one sort or another (the first, with the stanchions, might be a Borail or Gane)- Cambrian do a kit for these. The Bolster E was available from Lima, albeit with a crude underframe and the wrong bogies- you could use the Lima body with a Cambrian Turbot underframe, or just put Cambrian 'Gloucester' bogies on the Lima model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 thanks guys, some great info. bookmarked this thread. there are Salmon in these shots of Fazakerley yard. http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/fazakerley.htm also spotted on one of the grand national videos, a coach which looks like a mess van. regards the palshocvans, I dont think Parkside did them, but have seen them modelled sometime ago, must have been scratchbuilt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The 'Salmon', more likely a Borail, nearest the camera is one with LMS-style bogies- Cambrian kit C47 is this type. I don't think anyone has ever done a Palvan Shoc- the nearest I can think of is the Parkside model of their less successful predecessors, kit PC65. Presumably the Palvan Shoc would have a shorter body, or perhaps a longer chassis? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 the salmon and a lot of the works trains interest me, but havent really got the layout for them, too long and I think you'd only see them in trains, havent got the layout at home to run full size train of them. however I could run them on Liverpool clubs Olive mount jnc as that was a route from Fazakerley. mainly I find the research side of railway wagons interesting. although Ive never delved too deep into all the variations before so Im not well up on different wagons. a flat wagon is a flat wagon and a van is a van to me at present. another question would the brakevans in the background here be the same as the ones on the Ivatt's train? http://www.phantasra...otos/47289c.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 best shot ive got of a crane in Fazakerley yard about 20 years later.. not sure if its the same type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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