Seen at Sutton Manor Colliery

[flyingsignalman]

While scanning some pics of internal user wagons for the 16t min thread I found these pics and thought they may be of interest.

 

 

Diesel shunter parked up

 

 

 

some NG wagons

[PGH]

This is YE 2713 photographed on 17/8/1976 - a rather sunnier day ![

 

 

[Respite]

Sutton Manor had a NB 0-4-0DH as well. Later it received the last loco to be overhauled at Walkden Workshops a Sentinel 4wDH. The colliery locos had a duty with taking internal 16 ton mineral wagons from the washer up a steeply inclined siding to the SUP Slurry Utilisation Plant. The slurry was used in the colliery boilers to generate power and steam for the pits own uses. Pity one of the manufacturers don't do a set of 16 tonners in NCB livery.

[PGH]

The NB 0-4-0DH was D1 NB 27650/56, long term resident at Sutton Manor from 1957 to 1983, and photographed at the weighbridge on 26/4/1979

 

 

 

[Arthur]

Excellent photos again PGH. Unusual wheels all round (no pun intended). The split spoke wagon wheels would have just been to hand when a new set was needed. You do see them on various 'modern' wagons to which they were not fitted originally. The wheels on that North British are unusual too, cast with a web between the spokes, can't say I've ever noticed them before.

[Kenton]

Really great industrial scene photos especially the Janus and the RH. Is there any more details on the location itself, I can't be on my own thinking this would make a good layout. All the locos available in kit form, a mix of NG and SG and a 3-way point all one needs is a track plan and some space.

[Arthur]

Some background here Kenton. One of the last working collieries in the Lancashire coalfield. It was situated on the outskirts of Liverpool, just north of the M62 motorway running in from Manchester, and just a mile from Rainhill, location for the Rainhill trials.

 

http://www.suttonbeauty.org.uk/suttonmanorcolliery.html

 

Here's a photo of the main gates looking south west, the road links St.Helens to the north with Widnes to the south and the colliery was about equidistant between them. It gives a good idea of the compact nature of the main colliery buildings.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/11/79/1117964_44253751.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1117964&h=434&w=640&sz=44&tbnid=CysL8-_2JpzIsM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=133&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsutton%2Bmanor%2Bcolliery%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=sutton+manor+colliery&docid=4yOjimtyhcOvGM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HFS1T_6wIuOd0AXk05EF&sqi=2&ved=0CHYQ9QEwAg&dur=455

[Kenton]

Some background here Kenton. One of the last working collieries in the Lancashire coalfield.

 

http://www.suttonbea...orcolliery.html

 

Thanks Arthur, that made a very interesting diversionary read and glimpse into the past. Easy to forget this sort of history outside of the railway.

[PGH]

 

 

Really great industrial scene photos especially the Janus and the RH. Is there any more details on the location itself, I can't be on my own thinking this would make a good layout. All the locos available in kit form, a mix of NG and SG and a 3-way point all one needs is a track plan and some space.

There was an article on the colliery in the Industrial Railway Society's RECORD magazine, Issue No.152 March 1998, which contained a 1930s track plan. Back numbers of this may still be available from the Society. Also it was covered in the book "Industrial Railways of St.Helens, Widnes and Warrington - Part Two" by C.H.A.Townley and J.A.Peden published by the Industrial Railway Society in 2002, which I believe is still available from the society. This also contains a 1920s track plan.

In latter years rail operations seem to have been limited, comprising only internal slurry traffic - in 16 tonners - from the washer to the Slurry Utilisation Plant, until that ceased when the boilers went over to methane firing, and a couple of daily trains to Fiddlers Ferry Power Station, loaded at the exchange sidings by a tractor shovel, requiring the use of only one locomotive. After YE 2713 arrived in late 1967 it was the preferred loco being more powerful than NB 27650, so perhaps I was lucky to catch the latter loco outside in 1979. The main purpose of my August 1976 visit was to see the steam winders, No.1 Pit had a cross compound by Fraser & Chalmers 1907 and No.2 Pit a cross compound by Yates & Thom 1914, there was also a Walker Bros. fan engine spare to the electric fan and two Walker Bros. steam compressors - one in use. (wandering off topic here !). Rail traffic ceased soon after the 1984/5 strike.

In earlier years there were some interesting aspects of the railway operation:-
In addition to the connection to the nearby Widnes - St.Helens line, there was also a longer connection to the Liverpool and Manchester line at Lea Green, crossing the A568 on the level and with a siding en route serving the Roughdale Brickworks.
The colliery made a triangular junction on the west side of the Widnes to St.Helens line opposite a similar junction on the east side serving the Clockface Colliery. Miners trains were run from St.Helens serving both collieries with a LNWR loco working the train to the colliery connections where it was split into two with the respective colliery loco taking its section the remainder of the way to each colliery. In reverse the process was repeated, the colliery locos working the coaches to the main line where they were again combined behind a LNWR loco for the return journey to St.Helens.
After nationalisation Clockface coal went to Sutton Manor for washing, trains being worked throughout by a Sutton Manor locomotive. On reaching the main line the trains went round one leg of the triangular junction on to the main line then reversed on to the opposite leg of the other NCB line, in effect using the main line as a headshunt. This traffic ceased early in 1957 when Clockface went over to road transport.
Until 1950 Sutton Manor had an ex GWR Wolverhampton built pannier tank, ex GWR No.1956. This carried the nameplate "MONTY", later transferred to a new Austerity loco.

[Kenton]

PGH thanks for the additional background and wider picture. I have to admit that in terms of layout concept I was focusing simply on the rather bleak outlook of your photos of the weighbridge to the loading dock. Trying to get my head round the track layout from the point just before the weighbridge through to the 3-way and a little beyond. It seems to make for a very economical plank with minimal structures and the opportunity of a fairly unique scratch build of the weighbridge building. A Janus and a NB, perhaps not at the same time shuffling disreputable 16t'ers around from loading dock to weighing. Perhaps a tiny bit of modelers license with a RH delivering skips along a forlorn NG track at the front up to the loading dock.

[flyingsignalman]

Really great industrial scene photos especially the Janus and the RH. Is there any more details on the location itself, I can't be on my own thinking this would make a good layout. All the locos available in kit form, a mix of NG and SG and a 3-way point all one needs is a track plan and some space.

 

Here's a track plan of the layout from the Widnes No.7 to St Helens line to the weighing machine office, as at 13/2/1982.

I hope its legible enough but it will give an idea of the area. The 2 sidings at the left are, I think, the remains of the line towards the Liverpool and Manchester railway at Collins Green.

 

the diagram at the top is of the line from Widnes No.1 to Sutton Oak Jn (south of St Helens) with dates of closure on it.

It's not really legible at this size so the dates are as follows

Farnworth & Bold - Clock Face TOU 1/11/1981

Widnes No7 - Farnworth & Bold TOU 18/4/1982

(When I visited Widnes No.1 SB on 2/2/1982, the Signalman told me that the line from there to Farnworth & Bold had last been used 2 weeks previously, Farnworth trafic was being taken to Tanhouse Lane)

Clock Face No1 and 2 GFs TOU 16/5/1982

Clock Face to Sutton Oak Jn TOU 10/10/1987? (Sutton Oak Jn SB closed 27/1/1988)

 

Also a few more of my dodgy pics all taken on 13/2/1982

Looking north along the BR line

 

Looking from the southern colliery line back to BR line. The signal was formerly controlled from Clock Face Collirey SB which closed about 1969. The brick building housed the GF.

 

The junction of the north and south lines from BR, looking from the south line

 

The eastern end of the sidings

 

Looking back to the BR line, note the safety spur.

 

Wagons in the sidings

 

High class trackwork!

 

The loading dock

 

West end of sidings looking east

 

The weigh office

 

Higher level view of the sidings, note the ground conditions.

 

I do have some more pics but I ran out of time to scan them. I'll do them later.

 

(edited to add date of visit to Widnes No.1)

[Kenton]

Thanks Keith for both the wider picture and for adding more detail.

 

The area, apologies for homing in on your plan, which has the appeal for a short(ish) forlorn plank is below:

 

I had misinterpreted the loading dock as being nearer a track - from those photos and the diagram with the drainage ditch it appears of little use as a loading dock. The number and length pf the sidings are also longer than previously assumed from the earlier phots.

 

My thoughts, as noted above, were to use a little modelers license to bring in a NG loop from left to the top of the loading dock. A traverser off to the right of the sidings and a 'fixed' cassette off to the left completes the "layout".

[Andy C]

Go for it Kenton, thats crying out to be modelled!

 

Its a place Ive driven past on the M62 (usually quite fast) frequently over the last 30 years or so, Obviously theres not a lot to see now apart from the spoil heaps and the rather grotesque statue thing on top of them (Not so much an Angel of the North as a Demon of the Scouse) but before things got very overgrown to the point you can no longer see down there, one thing that really struck me as you went over the abandoned Widnes - St Helens trackbed was the amount of surface water in the cutting. The photographs of the somewhat wet sidings hammered that home just how wet it was around there. Presumably the colliery had a reputation as a wet one then.

[flyingsignalman]

Thanks Keith for both the wider picture and for adding more detail.

 

The area, apologies for homing in on your plan, which has the appeal for a short(ish) forlorn plank is below:

 

I had misinterpreted the loading dock as being nearer a track - from those photos and the diagram with the drainage ditch it appears of little use as a loading dock. The number and length pf the sidings are also longer than previously assumed from the earlier phots.

 

My thoughts, as noted above, were to use a little modelers license to bring in a NG loop from left to the top of the loading dock. A traverser off to the right of the sidings and a 'fixed' cassette off to the left completes the "layout".

 

Looking at PGH's photo of the weighbridge, in the background on the right appears to be a buffer stop that could have been at the end of a siding serving the loading dock from off the loop at the weigh bridge. The drainage channel seems to have been constructed between the date of our photos.

The NG could always be made to serve the loading dock and its reinstated siding.

[Kenton]

Go for it Kenton, thats crying out to be modelled!

 

Just playing, throwing the idea around, to see where it might fit or fall.Will the almost complete lack of structures in 6ft of badly subsided track just be too much of an expanse of nothingness?

 

I rather like the way this does work even considered as two separate boards from an operational view.

[flyingsignalman]

The plan looks good Kenton, I don't think the lack of buildings will mean too much nothingness. The variety of ground textures and levels will compensate; if it does look empty you could always add, say, a derelict stable block or shunters cabin.

[Arthur]

The actual topography is very flat, this is just on the northern edge if the Cheshire plain, so there's not much natural relief. As Keith said, there are some vertical elements, the spoil tips (spoil not slag, the former being the waste from the extractive industries like mining, the latter the waste from smelting and metal working operations), through which you can work shallow cuttings for example, and, along with a building or two, a few leaning timber poles carrying power or telephone lines would also add vertical interest. Some scrubby vegetation and I think that look of fairly flat desolation might work rather well.

[Kenton]

Thanks for the correction regarding slag spoil. I was taking the last two images above as reference. the "elevated" ground to the front being more like piles of waste with the NG running over and among it. The photo looking back beyond the weigh bridge shows more spoil on both sides of the single track. It is no too hard to imagine some rickety bridge crossing here transporting the spoil.

[avonside1563]

Have you seen the Stafford Railway Circle's colliery layout, New Haden Colliery? If not have a look here for links to various info about it

 

http://staffordshirefinescale.wordpress.com/new-haden-colliery/

[Kenton]

Stirring this thread again - probably when I should really ask the Mods to move my OT posts on a layout proposal to a separate thread in the correct forum??

 

I have been thinking this one over a little bit more and still feel that the plan has a lot to offer.

 

The one thing that is concerning me now is the way that the NG line emerges from the sky in the backscene. The complete lack of buildings and the otherwise flat backdrop to the layout means I am struggling how to disguise the NG line's appearance.

[Arthur]

How about a small but tall(ish) building. I'm thinking of something derelict and dilapidated, a frame clad in corrugated iron, bits hanging off and missing, almost skeletal. This might enable the narrow gauge to disappear behind a bit of it, then reappear, perhaps through a gap in the structure, before disappearing behind another bit of it and into the backdrop. Perhaps an old loading hopper, an old tippler house or something which may, or may not, have once been an n.g. loco shed.

 

I appreciate the appeal is largely from an overall desolate look but if this structure is dilapidated enough it might add rather than distract.

[Kenton]

I am a little reticent of introducing more buildings the first two images by PGH above show a fence line with houses beyond behind the weigh office (possible backscene or at least a limit to the dereliction) and more spoil heaps to the west.

 

I guess I could just use an extra large heap to partially obscure the hole in the sky or if it ends up really off-putting something like the structure shown behind the photos in post #3. but with so little I fear something tall could become a focal point.

 

I guess it will only show up once some track is laid.

 

I've been digging around in the loft and discovered a couple of suitable 1m x 60cm boards that could be "recovered" (stripped back to their frames) so that is dangerous, along with a handful of Peco 75 points including the 3-way and this is slow;y creeping forward into some life form.

[flyingsignalman]

Here's some "atmospheric" (ie really dodgy) photos taken the same day as the previous ones

 

Going back to the mainline, the sun came out so a slightly less dodgy pic, the north GF

 

Finally, the remains of Clock Face Colliery Siding signal box