Midland Tar Distillers traffic and rolling stock

[Guest Phil]

Decided to create a separate topic for this traffic after some discussion on a Scottish thread. In responding to posts by Paul Bartlett and Clive Mortimore, I wrote

 

 

I need to put together a raft of Midlands Tar Distillers tanks for a regular movement over my model railway. As always Paul Bartlett has kindly provided an excellent resource in his Zenfolio pages of MTD tanks. It is probably more than coincidence that Hornby have released a 20T tank in pretty much exact reproduction of a couple of Paul's photographs of tank car No 88. Paul also shows some Anchor mount cars which are inspiring me, further helped by CLive Mortimore's treatise on his work on Anchor Mount tanks.

 

Can anyone point me to drawings of the "anchor" part of a tank wagon, even if not a specific vehicle. As I need a few I might have to consider etched or resin parts to scratch aid.

 

 

Phil

 

Thanks for noticing the Hornby model. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32835152 I am trying to get them to alter the era being given, as it is suited to the steam/electric transition period (1968) and not the 1930s!

 

Anchor mount drawings

There is one on a 20 ton tank here

Bartlett, Paul W. & Fidczuk, Peter (1990) Tank wagons, part 3. NCB anchor mounted tar tank. Model Railways vol. 7 (part 10) pp 533 - 537.

 

Drawing - diag. TS040A NCB 20t Thomas Ness tank.

 

and another 20 ton

Bartlett, Paul W. & Mann, T., (1984) Cross Channel Ferry Wagons used on BR. Model Railway Constructor Annual 1985 pp 18 - 29, edited by Leigh, Chris.

 

Drawings - BR 20t tank diag. 1/ 304

 

We have measured the small MTD but you probably don't want to hear that!

 

Now Phil, do you know much about MTD? I was surprised to realise that none of the main sources of info on either PO wagons or tank wagons (Coppin, Tourrett) appear to have noticed this company - there is a D shaped tank wagon photo in the HMRS collection by Jim Richards which has been reproduced several times - including in Tourrets major text - but Tourret gives no more info about the companies railcar stock.

 

There is a useful history http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB146_BS-MY/

 

What is noticeable is that they had a major redevelopment soon after 1950 when "Four Ashes brought together the refining operations of the Company and enabled MTD to refine tar acids itself, resulting in the Company becoming the biggest producers of cresols, xylenols and cresylic acids in the U.K." The small anchor mount tanks http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e25e50e3c appear to date from about then. They joined with Yorkshire Tar distillers in 1971 and I don't believe any of the MTD fleet made it on to TOPS.

 

I hope this is of help

 

Paul Bartlett

 

PS what is Clive Mortimore's treatise on his work on Anchor Mount tanks?

PPS What has this to do with oil tank wagons in Scotland, seem well OT on someone elses topic! Apologies Julian.

This is Clive's work on tank wagons on his Hanging Hill layout, which he posted in response from a request from me.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61979-hanging-hill/&do=findComment&comment=812931

 

 

Paul - the post had nothing really to do with Julian's thread on tank wagons in Scotland, so I have created this !!!

 

 

 

Apologies for the late reply Paul.

I only really know as much as you do, and that is what has been gleaned by my guru Mikeh. I know from Jan Ford's Sedgeley Jn notes on her blog, that rafts of MTD tanks travelled over the Dudley line, and we are supposing they moved product between their plants at Four Ashes and Langley Green / Rowley Regis. Here is a link to Jan's blog - relating to MTD traffic

 

http://janfordsworld.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=Midland+tar+distillers

 

For those who might not be able to access it here is a short spell of a typical example from her "afternoon shift" on Saturday 29th December 1962.

 

14) T47 comes up ‘in the teeth of’ the Walsall, 44914 on the front priming badly with the young fireman at the controls. He rumbles past, the engine losing its feet occasionally, dragging 3 sheeted mineral wagons, 5 Conflats with cement containers, 1 sheeted mineral, 3 Conflats with cement containers, 2 sheeted wagons, 2 mineral wagons of coal, 2 open wagons, wooden, sheeted, one 20ton double side-door mineral wagon (empty), 2 more wooden sheeted wagons, 13 Midland Tar Distillers tank wagons of various designs, 1 low steel wagon, 1 open wagon, brake van and 42957 on the back (T39 on a banking turn).

(15) The Walsall comes Up right behind the freight and shortly returns to Walsall.

(16) T39 passes tender-first for The Port with 1 mineral wagon loaded with scrap, 2 4-wheel vans and a WR brake. Having detached, T39 returns from Dudleyport propelling one and the brake. He stands on the Up Main, holding up the Up Walsall, while the Parcels engine with one ‘BG’ goes down to Dudleyport. Then we get T39 away to Great Bridge allowing us to pull off for the Up Walsall.

 

 

 

Although there is a slight distraction from the thread here I really feel the need to mention it as it relates to wagons passing over the route. Jan refers to conflats loaded with cement containers on "Target 47", these being the (loose) design which Triang produced as R340 http://themodeltrainshop.co.uk/images/666131.JPG

 

There are photos featuring these on Dudley line trains, but I have no idea of the commodity carried.

[Arthur]

Hi Phil,

 

One commodity carried in the L type containers (the 'Triang' type) was crushed Dolomite. It was used to line basic (in the chemical sense) steel making furnaces. Patent Shaft, Round Oak and Bilston would all have used it until their respective closures.

 

Whether their traffic would have passed over that route, you would know better than I. Neither can I be sure whether these works received their Dolomite in these containers, though several steelworks did, so it's a strong possibility.

[andymozza]

Hi Phil, I reckon those conflats were Round Oak bound, besides some normal lime in sheeted 16t minerals, they were still to be seen occasionly in the 70's at R.O, I was told the containers contained some specialized type of lime but I cant remember what.(mag lime? dolomite?), Andy. oops, Arthur beat me!

[hmrspaul]

Decided to create a separate topic for this traffic after some discussion on a Scottish thread. In responding to posts by Paul Bartlett and Clive Mortimore, I wrote

  

Paul - the post had nothing really to do with Julian's thread on tank wagons in Scotland, so I have created this !!!

 

Apologies for the late reply Paul.

I only really know as much as you do, and that is what has been gleaned by my guru Mikeh. I know from Jan Ford's Sedgeley Jn notes on her blog, that rafts of MTD tanks travelled over the Dudley line, and we are supposing they moved product between their plants at Four Ashes and Langley Green / Rowley Regis. Here is a link to Jan's blog - relating to MTD traffic

 

http://janfordsworld.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=Midland+tar+distillers

 

For those who might not be able to access it here is a short spell of a typical example from her "afternoon shift" on Saturday 29th December 1962.

 

14) T47 comes up ‘in the teeth of’ the Walsall, 44914 on the front priming badly with the young fireman at the controls. He rumbles past, the engine losing its feet occasionally, dragging 3 sheeted mineral wagons, 5 Conflats with cement containers, 1 sheeted mineral, 3 Conflats with cement containers, 2 sheeted wagons, 2 mineral wagons of coal, 2 open wagons, wooden, sheeted, one 20ton double side-door mineral wagon (empty), 2 more wooden sheeted wagons, 13 Midland Tar Distillers tank wagons of various designs, 1 low steel wagon, 1 open wagon, brake van and 42957 on the back (T39 on a banking turn).

(15) The Walsall comes Up right behind the freight and shortly returns to Walsall.

(16) T39 passes tender-first for The Port with 1 mineral wagon loaded with scrap, 2 4-wheel vans and a WR brake. Having detached, T39 returns from Dudleyport propelling one and the brake. He stands on the Up Main, holding up the Up Walsall, while the Parcels engine with one ‘BG’ goes down to Dudleyport. Then we get T39 away to Great Bridge allowing us to pull off for the Up Walsall.

 

 

Dear Phil

 

Thanks, very interesting blog, I'll have to get the atlas out to see where all of this was. As I said earlier, a reasonably significant fleet which has gone largely unrecorded. I am quite amused that we now have a RTR and it is really only suitable for the very few years right at the end of steam and pre TOPS. Thank you for explaining about what you meant about Clive's link.

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

[Guest Phil]

Hi Phil,

 

One commodity carried in the L type containers (the 'Triang' type) was crushed Dolomite. It was used to line basic (in the chemical sense) steel making furnaces. Patent Shaft, Round Oak and Bilston would all have used it until their respective closures.

 

Whether their traffic would have passed over that route, you would know better than I. Neither can I be sure whether these works received their Dolomite in these containers, though several steelworks did, so it's a strong possibility.

Hi Phil, I reckon those conflats were Round Oak bound, besides some normal lime in sheeted 16t minerals, they were still to be seen occasionly in the 70's at R.O, I was told the containers contained some specialized type of lime but I cant remember what.(mag lime? dolomite?), Andy. oops, Arthur beat me!

 

Thanks Arthur and Andy for your info. I am not sure we havn't discussed it before, but this is the most useful place to archive it.

 

One thing that had struck me on the quoted train was the mix of sheeted minerals and Conflat Ls with mineral containers, very probably destined to the same customer. Although they were different types of vehicle - the containers probably being craned off the conflats, perhaps they contained similar commodities ?

[Guest Phil]

Dear Phil

 

Thanks, very interesting blog, I'll have to get the atlas out to see where all of this was. As I said earlier, a reasonably significant fleet which has gone largely unrecorded. I am quite amused that we now have a RTR and it is really only suitable for the very few years right at the end of steam and pre TOPS. Thank you for explaining about what you meant about Clive's link.

 

Regards

 

Paul Bartlett

Perhaps even more curious Paul is - who within Hornby, or as an outside advisor, saw your photos on MTD 88 and thought "we could do the 20T tank in ths livery" !!!!! Thanks for the post

[hmrspaul]

Perhaps even more curious Paul is - who within Hornby, or as an outside advisor, saw your photos on MTD 88 and thought "we could do the 20T tank in ths livery" !!!!! Thanks for the post

Someone has trawled my collection extensively - there are 8 others in the 2013 catalogue that appear to be based on my photos (there are far more new re-issue models than seem to be being discussed on the topic about the Hornby announcements). It has not gone unnoticed by me.

 

I have always thought that this was a good model. I used to have one of the SMBP versions, but have not seen 88 in the plastic. I don't know the dimensions of 88, but it does appear to have been a far better choice than is usually made by RTR manufacturers for tank wagon liveries.  It is a shame that no one seems to have a photo of how these tanks appeared earlier; I suspect they will have had large lettering like the anchor mounted 12ton tanks.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Arthur]

One thing that had struck me on the quoted train was the mix of sheeted minerals and Conflat Ls with mineral containers, very probably destined to the same customer. Although they were different types of vehicle - the containers probably being craned off the conflats, perhaps they contained similar commodities ?

Not quite Phil, though they may have originated at the same quarry/works.

 

The sheeted opens would contain lump limestone, used in bulk, as a flux in both the iron and steel making processes. It helps form a slag which removes some of the impurities. It would be sheeted to keep it dry. Any moisture can turn to steam explosively when charged into a hot furnace. Having witnessed it first hand, it's a 'WTF' moment!!

 

Dolomite is used in lesser quantities to line basic steel making furnaces, and to fettle, or repair, the walls after each tapping. Fettling used to be one of the most arduous jobs in steel making but, by the 60's, fettling machines were doing the much of the work. It's role is to help remove phosphorous, which is present in most ores and the iron made from them, from the steel. Steel containing phosphorous is useless.

[Guest Phil]

Ahh Excellent Arthur. Thanks very much.

Mikeh and I have pondered the sight of sheeted minerals ona number of trains in the West Midlands / Black Country, but also around the North Derbys area. I believe Wirksworth was a Limestone quarry, so that would fit.

 

Would you have any idea where the limestone used in black Country iron / steelworks came from Arthur ?

 

Thanks as always

[Arthur]

You're welcome Phil, just pleased that it's of some interest.

 

Sorry, I can't help with the source of the limestone for the Black Country works other than to say, as a low value, bulk commodity, it would have come from one of the nearer quarries.

 

Just to clarify the dolomite/phosphorous information. Though the Dolomite facilitates the removal of the phosphorous, it goes into the slag and is removed with it. This means that basic steel slag is rich in phosphorous and as such is a useful, and valuable, agricultural fertiliser. It was ground, and bagged up, for sale, usually on site and taken away in covered vans, another source of rail traffic.

[Fat Controller]

Limestone would originally come from mines/quarries in the Dudley area- my sister did some research around there and discovered some of the mine workings had been around since the 16th/17th century; later, it would probably come from the Peak District, or possibly around Wrexham. Unburnt limestone is pretty stable, though thousands of years of rain causes the development of 'Karst' landscapes- once 'burnt', however, it becomes very reactive, most notably with water (hence the sheeted wagons). The reaction with water is very dramatic, and exothermic (heat-generating)- it is used for 'self-warming' survival packs.

Dolomite comes from a limited number of sites in the UK; most notable are Ferryhill (Co Durham), the area between Sheffield and Doncaster, and a relatively small site near the former Walnut Tree Viaduct. All three have, at various times, been exploited by Steetley.

The Basic Slag produced by using dolomite produces a fertiliser particularily useful in replacing minerals (notably magnesium) in pastures used for dairying; the resultant grass has a very rich, dark-green, colour. In some areas, the Dolomite itself is used as a treatment; hence the traffic from Ferryhill to certain parts of Scotland into the early 1990s.

[mikeh]

Picking up on the Conflat Ls, I am fairly sure they would be Dolomite for Round oak, exchanged via Wichnor and Dudley. If I had to guess a source I would say Whitwell, which was a Dolomite quarry and opened in 1960. But as i say that is only a guess...

 

Regarding MTD, they had contracts to source by-products from most West Midlands gas works but even after Four Ashes opened the majority went by canal, right up to around 1960.

They had rail connected Tar works at Oldbury and Nechells (Robinsons Siding) and also Banbury. There is an aerial photo of Nechells on the Britain from the air site and a raft of tanks can just be made out.

After the tar works closed Four Ashes received bitumen based product by rail from a number of locations, but by then in TTA type wagons.

 

Regards

Mike

[hmrspaul]

 

 

Someone has trawled my collection extensively - there are 8 others in the 2013 catalogue that appear to be based on my photos (there are far more new re-issue models than seem to be being discussed on the topic about the Hornby announcements). It has not gone unnoticed by me.

 

I have always thought that this was a good model. I used to have one of the SMBP versions, but have not seen 88 in the plastic. I don't know the dimensions of 88, but it does appear to have been a far better choice than is usually made by RTR manufacturers for tank wagon liveries.  It is a shame that no one seems to have a photo of how these tanks appeared earlier; I suspect they will have had large lettering like the anchor mounted 12ton tanks.

 

Paul Bartlett

I now have one of the Hornby models.

 

 

 

The finish is excellent, and don't criticise them for leaving the transfer backing film showing  see http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32835152  And remember this is an era 5 or 6 model.

 

Paul

[bescotbeast]

Not wishing to hijack this thread but I intend adding a Tar Distillers (prompted by the Hornby tank wagon and for the variety of traffic) to my own layout based in Pendeford, Wolverhampton http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71354-pendeford-sidings/&do=findComment&comment=1083488 what I'm trying to get clear is what the Honby wagon pictured above was used for? was it for bringing the un-refined Coal tar into the plant or for taking the Bitumen out of the plant? 

                                    Thanks for any help given 

                                                                   Simon

[Fat Controller]

Not wishing to hijack this thread but I intend adding a Tar Distillers (prompted by the Hornby tank wagon and for the variety of traffic) to my own layout based in Pendeford, Wolverhampton http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71354-pendeford-sidings/&do=findComment&comment=1083488 what I'm trying to get clear is what the Honby wagon pictured above was used for? was it for bringing the un-refined Coal tar into the plant or for taking the Bitumen out of the plant? 

                                    Thanks for any help given 

                                                                   Simon

It doesn't seem to have any heating tubes in the ends, so I'd guess it would be the Coal Tar, which is slightly more fluid than bitumen

[bescotbeast]

Thanks for the quick reply Brian, so at least I know what to use the Hornby wagon for. Would I be right in surmising that the 1968 picture of the tank at Watford Jcn would indicate they were sourcing Coal Tar from  Gas works in the Watford area?

                                Simon

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for the quick reply Brian, so at least I know what to use the Hornby wagon for. Would I be right in surmising that the 1968 picture of the tank at Watford Jcn would indicate they were sourcing Coal Tar from  Gas works in the Watford area?

                                Simon

I would guess so- as North Sea gas took over, there'd have been fewer and fewer gasworks using coking coal, so they'd have to go further and further afield to get supplies. My first 'proper' job was at Tenneco's plant in Avonmouth in 1976, which incorporated the former Butler's tar distillation plant; by this time they'd given up on coal tar distillates, and converted part of the plant to recycle motor oil.

[bescotbeast]

Thanks for the info and insight Brian and I have also made use of this website  http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/tardis.htm , I feel I have a clearer understanding of the flows into a Tar distillers which should keep my trip engines busy.

                                        Simon

[Arthur]

Here are the flow charts for Clarence Works on Teesside. It was essentially the tar distillery for Dorman Longs Teesside coke oven plants, and one of the larger operations of it's type.

 

 

[bescotbeast]

As ever Arthur your a mine of information regarding Industrial Process and those two sheets make it so clear what goes on and how, you've made my day

                                                 Simon

[Arthur]

you've made my day

                                                 Simon

Ha! Information is free Simon, but making your day,....might have to charge for that!!

[bescotbeast]

Giving this thread a bump with this flow chart which compliments Arthurs http://www.hatheway.net/images/wastepicts/big_tar_chem_furnas_1942.large.jpg

                                  Simon

[ivatt2mt]

I now have one of the Hornby models.

 

MTD 88 Hornby © Paul Bartlett r.jpg

 

MTD 88 Hornby © Paul Bartlett r 2.jpg

 

The finish is excellent, and don't criticise them for leaving the transfer backing film showing  see http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mtd/e32835152  And remember this is an era 5 or 6 model.

 

Paul

 

Noting Paul's comments about the lateness of the era represented by the Hornby model I was inspired to try and re-do a couple of them back to the late fifties. Going by your estimate that they had the old large lettering, I found a transfer at POW Sides. I also 'guesstimated' the number 78 for the second tank. The transfer omitted the the words 'The' and 'Ltd' at front and back, but nothing that a chino-graph pencil and tar stains can't leave to the imagination! I hope this rendition looks a bit closer to that era (photo attached)