Design for Stourhampton

[28XX]

Here is my proposed track layout for Stourhampton North in 1960 +/- 10 years, the premise is as follows.

The town is situated at the foot of the Lickey Hills on a GWR secondary main line through Borsetshire. Birmingham is in the Down direction, beyond Gilesmore.  Felpersham (Evesham) is in the Up direction.  Bankers are stabled here to assist northbound trains.

A commuter service terminates here, requiring trains to run round and shunt empty to the Bay platform. There is a semi-fast through passenger Snow Hill to Oxford service.

There is a goods-only transfer siding to the Midland station elsewhere in the town.

There are the usual daily pick-up goods, mail trains and through goods services.

Stourhampton South has carriage sidings and a domestic coal yard. The next box further South has connections to private sidings but no Company storage, so wagons are tripped to and from Stourhampton North.

Although I was taught how to do this 35 years ago, I would welcome your criticism.

Stourhampton North.pdf

 

[Katier]

Are you looking for guidance on track plan or signalling layout.. if its the latter then you need really to be in the signalling part of forum.

 

If its the former then a proper layout plan would be usefull and scale plus space available essential.

[Flying Pig]

Are you looking for guidance on track plan or signalling layout.. if its the latter then you need really to be in the signalling part of forum.

 

If its the former then a proper layout plan would be usefull and scale plus space available essential.

 

It could be argued that the schema of the layout, in the guise of the signalling diagram, is the heart of the matter and that fitting it into a given space is merely detail

[The Stationmaster]

Nothing wrong with the track layout, rather nice and prototypical and a very good way in my view to approach a layout plan (I've used exactly the same method for my long aplanning and much simpler through station and I think it is the best way to make sure you're getting to a sensible layout and signalling).  

 

But some aspects (oops) of the signalling are making me wonder a bit, sorry about the order but just as I looked through it, and I hope you don't think I'm being too negative - this is a detailed plan which merits detailed examination in my viewy

 

1. Why has 45 got full size arms and a lower arm distant on what would seem to be a Goods Line?

 

2. Or is it not a Goods Line and is 44 incorrect?  (and if it really is a Goods Line I'm not sure that 44 is needed in any case - if it is going to be there it should be protecting crossover 9 and not in advance of it).

 

3.  Is the line to 'the other lot' a siding (as it is called on the diagram) or a  running line?  If it's a siding it wouldn't have token working but if it's a running line it would have a token but wouldn't be called a siding.

 

4. 42 should have a ring on the arm - but would probably be superfluous if the line is a siding.

 

5. Points 35 a should be 40a in order to make a trap (assuming we do have a goods line etc).

 

6. 46 should have a lower arm distant (and possibly 39 too - depends on distances).

 

7. 1 should be drawn as a lower arm distant (but understood it is probably this way for clarity).

 

8. There would probably be a berth track, 200 yds, in rear of 38/39 for standard GW block control.  There seems to be a lot of track circuiting on the Goods Line - very unlikely for 1960, as is the amount of the Main lines come to that.

 

9.  What is the purpose of FPLs 25 & 31?

 

10.There should be a single arm disc at points 6a. There should also be discs at 9b, 12b, and 30b and possibly at 11b depending on how far it is from points 17b.

 

11.There should be a STOP board on the through line which trails into points 29a

 

12. I wonder about dets placer 23 if we are on a Goods lIne but would need to do some further checking on that, equally there might be a need for a triple dets placer (worked by lever No.6) for the bay.

 

You also have a mixture of disc signal practice with yellow discs (correctly sited of course) while still retaining multiple discs at other places; quite possibly teh locking alterations to go with the yellow arms might well have been accompanied by some rationalisation of the double discs although teh ones you have shown so far are on the two running lines and might well have been left alone

[28XX]

Nothing wrong with the track layout, rather nice and prototypical and a very good way in my view to approach a layout plan (I've used exactly the same method for my long aplanning and much simpler through station and I think it is the best way to make sure you're getting to a sensible layout and signalling).  

 

But some aspects (oops) of the signalling are making me wonder a bit, sorry about the order but just as I looked through it, and I hope you don't think I'm being too negative - this is a detailed plan which merits detailed examination in my view.

 

1. Why has 45 got full size arms and a lower arm distant on what would seem to be a Goods Line? Cut & Paste is the enemy! Should be a ringed stop arm with no distant.

 

2. Or is it not a Goods Line and is 44 incorrect?  (and if it really is a Goods Line I'm not sure that 44 is needed in any case - if it is going to be there it should be protecting crossover 9 and not in advance of it). I really intend it to be a goods line, but if 44 is omitted, then 45, 10 and 13 become section signals, would the latter two therefore have to have short arms on posts rather than be discs?  If so then would they need shunt arms below as well?

 

3.  Is the line to 'the other lot' a siding (as it is called on the diagram) or a  running line?  If it's a siding it wouldn't have token working but if it's a running line it would have a token but wouldn't be called a siding. I'll ditch the word "Siding"

 

4. 42 should have a ring on the arm - but would probably be superfluous if the line is a siding. Agreed I'll add a ring.

 

5. Points 35 a should be 40a in order to make a trap (assuming we do have a goods line etc). Yes I see, so 35b becomes 35 single ended.

 

6. 46 should have a lower arm distant (and possibly 39 too - depends on distances). 46 yes, but not 39. There's a permanent 30mph slack due to the curvature through the platforms (4' radius in 00)

 

7. 1 should be drawn as a lower arm distant (but understood it is probably this way for clarity).  Correct, its on South's starter.

 

8. There would probably be a berth track, 200 yds, in rear of 38/39 for standard GW block control.  There seems to be a lot of track circuiting on the Goods Line - very unlikely for 1960, as is the amount of the Main lines come to that. I'll take it out.

 

9.  What is the purpose of FPLs 25 & 31? Nothing, no facing moves except shunting. They will go.

 

10.There should be a single arm disc at points 6a. There should also be discs at 9b, 12b, and 30b (30a?) and possibly at 11b depending on how far it is from points 17b. All agreed except 11b

 

11.There should be a STOP board on the through line which trails into points 29a Between 29a and the siding throat?

 

12. I wonder about dets placer 23 if we are on a Goods lIne but would need to do some further checking on that, equally there might be a need for a triple dets placer (worked by lever No.6) for the bay.  Both agreed.

 

You also have a mixture of disc signal practice with yellow discs (correctly sited of course) while still retaining multiple discs at other places; quite possibly the locking alterations to go with the yellow arms might well have been accompanied by some rationalization of the double discs although the ones you have shown so far are on the two running lines and might well have been left alone.  I'll think about these.

 

I rather hoped you would respond to this, thank you very much for spending the time on it.  I have appended comments to your observations.   South Box layout will be very similar to Henwick except the power station sidings are replaced by the run-out of the UGL.

 

Cheers, Steve

[The Stationmaster]

I rather hoped you would respond to this, thank you very much for spending the time on it.  I have appended comments to your observations.   South Box layout will be very similar to Henwick except the power station sidings are replaced by the run-out of the UGL.

 

Cheers, Steve

 

The Stationmaster, on 15 May 2013 - 21:37, said:

Nothing wrong with the track layout, rather nice and prototypical and a very good way in my view to approach a layout plan (I've used exactly the same method for my long aplanning and much simpler through station and I think it is the best way to make sure you're getting to a sensible layout and signalling).  

 

But some aspects (oops) of the signalling are making me wonder a bit, sorry about the order but just as I looked through it, and I hope you don't think I'm being too negative - this is a detailed plan which merits detailed examination in my view.

 

1. Why has 45 got full size arms and a lower arm distant on what would seem to be a Goods Line? Cut & Paste is the enemy! Should be a ringed stop arm with no distant.

 

2. Or is it not a Goods Line and is 44 incorrect?  (and if it really is a Goods Line I'm not sure that 44 is needed in any case - if it is going to be there it should be protecting crossover 9 and not in advance of it). I really intend it to be a goods line, but if 44 is omitted, then 45, 10 and 13 become section signals, would the latter two therefore have to have short arms on posts rather than be discs?  If so then would they need shunt arms below as well?

 

No need to worry about 10 & 13  (13 would in any case read to 44 if you move it back as I suggested - which is probabiy the better way of doing it).  The discs are simply reading onto a goods line and you don't need Shunt Ahead arms either - it's all nice and Permissive letting you have as many trains as you like in the section.

 

3.  Is the line to 'the other lot' a siding (as it is called on the diagram) or a  running line?  If it's a siding it wouldn't have token working but if it's a running line it would have a token but wouldn't be called a siding. I'll ditch the word "Siding"

 

4. 42 should have a ring on the arm - but would probably be superfluous if the line is a siding. Agreed I'll add a ring.

 

5. Points 35 a should be 40a in order to make a trap (assuming we do have a goods line etc). Yes I see, so 35b becomes 35 single ended.

 

Yes

 

6. 46 should have a lower arm distant (and possibly 39 too - depends on distances). 46 yes, but not 39. There's a permanent 30mph slack due to the curvature through the platforms (4' radius in 00)

 

Noted - ok

 

7. 1 should be drawn as a lower arm distant (but understood it is probably this way for clarity).  Correct, its on South's starter.

 

8. There would probably be a berth track, 200 yds, in rear of 38/39 for standard GW block control.  There seems to be a lot of track circuiting on the Goods Line - very unlikely for 1960, as is the amount of the Main lines come to that. I'll take it out.

 

9.  What is the purpose of FPLs 25 & 31? Nothing, no facing moves except shunting. They will go.

 

10.There should be a single arm disc at points 6a. There should also be discs at 9b, 12b, and 30b (30a?) and possibly at 11b depending on how far it is from points 17b. All agreed except 11b

 

11.There should be a STOP board on the through line which trails into points 29a Between 29a and the siding throat?

 

It should be just in rear (i.e. in the direction of points 35) of the fouling point between the goods line and the connection from the Up Sidings.  This would mean that any train arriving at the STOP board would be held there until given permission to pass it and proceed towards signal 44.  the reason for this is to protect movements through the hand points to/from the Up Sidings - you could also make 27 a yellow disc if you wished.

 

12. I wonder about dets placer 23 if we are on a Goods lIne but would need to do some further checking on that, equally there might be a need for a triple dets placer (worked by lever No.6) for the bay.  Both agreed.

 

You also have a mixture of disc signal practice with yellow discs (correctly sited of course) while still retaining multiple discs at other places; quite possibly the locking alterations to go with the yellow arms might well have been accompanied by some rationalization of the double discs although the ones you have shown so far are on the two running lines and might well have been left alone.  I'll think about these.

 

Otherwise all heading in the right direction - you havea  great starting point (sorry again) for planning what your layout will look like and how it will work.

[28XX]

I have added the discs and renumbered.  The UM starter, now 47, is slotted with South's Home, so doesn't need a distant on it.  I've also played about with track circuit naming, what are the GW conventions on this?  Also, when did yellow discs come into general use?

 

[The Stationmaster]

No need for a slot arrangement on 47 - very un-GW like, the usual arrangement would be it as North 'Box's Starter with South's lower arm distant (to be found at numerous middling/large size GW/WR stations).

 

One thing I missed before (sorry) is that disc No. 9 - as it now is - probably wouldn't be provided; up to you.

 

The STOP board should just say 'STOP' and be shown accordingly on the 'box diagram.

 

WR track circuit numbering changed in later years and was based on a code of two letters thus the track circuit you have as 49AT would be AA under that convention.  However earlier numbering was very similar to what you have and was based on the lever it related to.  Thus on the Down Line 2AT would still be 2AT,  the track circuit through 6 and 18 would be 6T, that through 26 and 30 would be 26T, and the final one would be 5AT.  In reality there is no need for 6T or 26T as they are through trailing points although it was not unusual to find a reasonable amount of track circuiting at some busier locations.  6T and 26T could also be numbered in the alpha series as they don't actually serve any function other than indication - so they would be AAT and ABT respectively.

 

On the Up Line 49AT will still be 49AT, the one through the facing point will be 41T (because it locks the FPL lever), the one through the diamond will be 48T, and the next one will be 13T, while the one you still have numbered 46AT will be 47AT.  Similarly to the Down Line 48T and 13T could be numbered in an alpha series and be BAT and BBT respectively.

 

Hope that sorts it all for you.

[28XX]

No need for a slot arrangement on 47 - very un-GW like, the usual arrangement would be it as North 'Box's Starter with South's lower arm distant (to be found at numerous middling/large size GW/WR stations). OK. The consequence is that an Up train carrying out station duties will be stopped in the section, rather than inside South's Home signal, but I guess that's not a problem.

 

 

 

One thing I missed before (sorry) is that disc No. 9 - as it now is - probably wouldn't be provided; up to you. Becomes a spare

 

The STOP board should just say 'STOP' and be shown accordingly on the 'box diagram. Done

 

WR track circuit numbering changed in later years and was based on a code of two letters thus the track circuit you have as 49AT would be AA under that convention.  However earlier numbering was very similar to what you have and was based on the lever it related to.  Thus on the Down Line 2AT would still be 2AT,  the track circuit through 6 and 18 would be 6T, that through 26 and 30 would be 26T, and the final one would be 5AT.  In reality there is no need for 6T or 26T as they are through trailing points although it was not unusual to find a reasonable amount of track circuiting at some busier locations.  6T and 26T could also be numbered in the alpha series as they don't actually serve any function other than indication - so they would be AAT and ABT respectively.

 

On the Up Line 49AT will still be 49AT, the one through the facing point will be 41T (because it locks the FPL lever), the one through the diamond will be 48T, and the next one will be 13T, while the one you still have numbered 46AT will be 47AT.  Similarly to the Down Line 48T and 13T could be numbered in an alpha series and be BAT and BBT respectively.  Yes I follow.  What determines the first letter? Is the A? series the furthest running line from the box? or always the Down line? or the line at the top of the diagram?

 

Hope that sorts it all for you. Yes brilliant, thanks once again for your help.

[Miss Prism]

Why isn't the turnout to the up sidings controlled by the box?

[The Stationmaster]

Why isn't the turnout to the up sidings controlled by the box?

28Xx's choice but nothing at all unusual about it and it does save a few levers.  Looked at from a practical viewpoint an incoming freight arrives at the STOP board and then any shunting to/from the yard can carry on without involving the Signalman in lots of potential lever movements dealing with different cuts off, or onto, the train - it's all left to the Shunters

 

Replying to 28xx's latest queries - in order from that in Post No.09 -

Yes, the train standing at the station would be in the section - as was the case at, to quote a few examples - Southall, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead (Relief Lines), Twyford, Reading, Didcot, and Swindon. To which you can add just about any and every larger station on the GWR;  standing in the section is no less safe, and in some respects probably a  bit safer, than standing within the protection of the Home Signal.

 

As far as Track Circuit letters are concerned when the alpha series were use I think they took whatever was available to use without creating any confusion with anywhere nearby and a separate prefix (first digit) letter would be uniquely used for each line).

[Miss Prism]

28Xx's choice but nothing at all unusual about it and it does save a few levers.  Looked at from a practical viewpoint an incoming freight arrives at the STOP board and then any shunting to/from the yard can carry on without involving the Signalman in lots of potential lever movements dealing with different cuts off, or onto, the train - it's all left to the Shunters

Yes, point accepted. I had in mind an up freight, either on the main itself or having come in on the up goods, being backed (via 13 and/or 14) into the up sidings. I suppose it hinges on what kind of use 28XX envisages for the up sidings.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, point accepted. I had in mind an up freight, either on the main itself or having come in on the up goods, being backed (via 13 and/or 14) into the up sidings. I suppose it hinges on what kind of use 28XX envisages for the up sidings.

In practice very similar in that at some point it passes from the Signalman's control to that of the Shunter(s) and effectively that boundary of control is at No.27 disc (which would of course not be pulled off for a move towards the Up Sidings.  But in the case of a train working off the Up Main or Up Goods the Signalman would have more work to do and assuming the train is short enough he would normally put it on the Up goods as that wouldn't involve quite so much work as a shunt from the Up Main.  If it's too long to stand in clear of the points (or if the signalbox marks are being taken ) it would work off the Up Main with the extra lever movements that involves.

 

Incidentally back to yellow discs they were introduced to the Western with effect from January 1950 (from which same date rings ceased to be provided on the arms of new signals on Goods Lines.

[28XX]

Yes, point accepted. I had in mind an up freight, either on the main itself or having come in on the up goods, being backed (via 13 and/or 14) into the up sidings. I suppose it hinges on what kind of use 28XX envisages for the up sidings.

Domestic coal is dealt with at Stourhampton South.  Vehicles and animals via the dock, and valuable / perishable in the shed.  So the up sidings are general merchandise for a town of say 40,000 plus two trains per day which are tripped a few wagons at a time to the British Vorpal works, the next block post further south.  Stourhampton Brewery is also rail connected, as is the Felpersham Engineering & Machine TOol (FEMTO) company.  These are probably accessed by ground frames, not sure where I can fit them in(!).  Do you think all this makes hand points at the yard throat into a bottleneck?

 

To respond to Katier's point, now that I have established what layout I need to run my services, I will see how much of it I can model in the space available.  The space is 16 feet x 7 foot 6 and it will be in 00.

[The Stationmaster]

 Do you think all this makes hand points at the yard throat into a bottleneck?

 

To respond to Katier's point, now that I have established what layout I need to run my services, I will see how much of it I can model in the space available.  The space is 16 feet x 7 foot 6 and it will be in 00.

No - in fact handpoints are considerably quicker than 'box worked points when it comes to shunting.

 

And yes - I wholeheartedly go along with this way of tackling layout planning as you start from something akin to a prototype situation as opposed to starting from a model perspective.  The interesting bit will come going from this stage to seeing what there is room for in a reasonable representation of your 'home developed' prototype - exactly the same as I will face when what currently lurks under the provisional name of Goytre moves forward by a planning stage and I try to rationalise why some tunnels have suddenly appeared in an area where there aren't any in the real world.

[28XX]

Here is the plan for Stourhampton South.

 

 

I'm happy with the Up signalling, (but would welcome any criticism) but I'm less sure of the Down side.  There is no point in putting the Starter on the platform side of the crossing because any train held there would block the road.  This means that five signals read into the forward section, 3, 4, 5, 17 and 19.  This doesn't seem right somehow.  Any thoughts?

[The Stationmaster]

Right, Down Line first -

 

There should be a track circuit in rear of the Home Signal No.2 for block proving if you are going to provide one at all, there's no essential need (other than sighting from the 'box) for a track circuit in rear of the Inner Home Signal No.5.

 

I would sensibly provide a running signal - as the Starting Signal, wi - immediately in rear of the platform end.  That accords with GW practice and avoids the complication that you have identified of potential block releases on 5 signals.

 

No 22 disc should be at the toe of points 21 a (note misprint on original plan re number of this point) which raises the question of placing another disc beyond the level crossing where you currently have No. 22 and such provision would be influenced by local circumstances but I think it would be unusual to bring something over the level crossing and stop it clear before setting back through 21 - best to keep the gates closed against road traffic in one continuous job.

 

As far as the Up Line is concerned my only comments are that 26 and 25 should be moved forwards so that 25 is at the point toe and 26 is at the foot of the platform ramp but you might have drawn them in the way you have to ensure clarity.

 

And ideally - reflecting usual Western practice - there should be a signal immediately in rear of and protecting No.11 crossover out onto the Up Line.

 

I think the naming of the block instruments should reflect which is the pegger, not the non-pegger, thus reading from the left they should be Down Goods, Down Main, Up Main, and Up Goods.

 

As far as the level crossing is concerned GW practice varied a bit but the most common arrangement seems to have been the two locks (one open to road, the other open to rail) for 4 gate crossings were part of the main lever frame, and of course interlocked with signals, while the wicket gates were on a separate two lever frame (which was not interlocked with signals etc).

[Miss Prism]

I can't see how you could have less than the five (3, 4, 5, 17 and 19) reading into the down main. The thing I wondered about was the route ambiguity of 22.

 

Btw, are 13 and 14 detonators? (I'm unfamiliar with the graphic.) 

[28XX]

Many thanks again, Stationmaster for your help. Responses below.

 

Right, Down Line first -

 

There should be a track circuit in rear of the Home Signal No.2 for block proving if you are going to provide one at all, there's no essential need (other than sighting from the 'box) for a track circuit in rear of the Inner Home Signal No.5. Yes agreed, we discussed this before.  My bad.

 

I would sensibly provide a running signal - as the Starting Signal, - immediately in rear of the platform end.  That accords with GW practice and avoids the complication that you have identified of potential block releases on 5 signals. Ok that's really what I wanted, so assume a local instruction to not clear 3, 4, 5, 17 or 19 until this starter is free (LC received) to avoid blocking the crossing.

 

No 22 disc should be at the toe of points 21 a (note misprint on original plan re number of this point) (agreed) which raises the question of placing another disc beyond the level crossing where you currently have No. 22 and such provision would be influenced by local circumstances but I think it would be unusual to bring something over the level crossing and stop it clear before setting back through 21 - best to keep the gates closed against road traffic in one continuous job. OK. This could potentially be a 4 disc stack but that's probably overkill?

 

As far as the Up Line is concerned my only comments are that 26 and 25 should be moved forwards so that 25 is at the point toe and 26 is at the foot of the platform ramp but you might have drawn them in the way you have to ensure clarity. Yes I did.

 

And ideally - reflecting usual Western practice - there should be a signal immediately in rear of and protecting No.11 crossover out onto the Up Line. Good!  This will allow a banker to come Up from 'North' and buffer up behind a heavy (or struggling) passenger train while it performs platform duties, and simultaneously allow a move from the coal yard to the Up main. 

 

I think the naming of the block instruments should reflect which is the pegger, not the non-pegger, thus reading from the left they should be Down Goods, Down Main, Up Main, and Up Goods. Yes, this needs correcting on 'North' as well.

 

As far as the level crossing is concerned GW practice varied a bit but the most common arrangement seems to have been the two locks (one open to road, the other open to rail) for 4 gate crossings were part of the main lever frame, and of course interlocked with signals, while the wicket gates were on a separate two lever frame (which was not interlocked with signals etc). Is that two levers required in the main frame?

[28XX]

Revised version.  No need for an outer home (2) now, so 5 has been moved back to suggest a block-overlap before the crossing.

 

Various numbers altered to suit the changes.

 

Two discs 22 selected by points 21.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On the revised version then,

 

Down Line

 

Signal No.5 is now too far in rear of Nos. 8 & 21 crossovers - looks a distinctly LM way of doing things, the Western usually (almost invariably) placed signals right up to the fouling point in situations like this.  Ideally you need to reinstate No. 2 in order to get  a Clearing Point  that ends in rear in rear of your new No. 6.  (as far as Clearing Points are concerned the level crossing is irrelevant as it does not constitute an obstruction with the gates open to road traffic).

 

Up Line

No.12 should be a running signal (i.e a semaphore) and not a ground disc. 

[28XX]

So 2 is back in, 5 is by the fouling point, the up line signals are renumbered, what was disc 12 is now a full height semaphore 25.

 

[The Stationmaster]

I can't see how you could have less than the five (3, 4, 5, 17 and 19) reading into the down main. The thing I wondered about was the route ambiguity of 22.

 

Btw, are 13 and 14 detonators? (I'm unfamiliar with the graphic.) 

Question 1 - dealt with.

Question 2 - re 22.  28XX has dealt with it in a suitable way although a single disc would have been ok, it really all depends on period represented/period during which the signalling was installed because over the years the GWR moved from single discs, to single and double (by 1920), to multiple (probably late 1920s, definitely 1930s), back to single on new work (post war but existing double and multiple discs renewed or replaced unless major locking alterations were also going on at the same time).

Question 3 - You are correct (although as far as Western Signalbox diagrams are concerned they were shown slightly differently from that).

[28XX]

Many thanks, Stationmaster & Miss Prism for all your help.  Diving into xtracad now to see how much of Stourhampton I can fit into 15'6" x 7'7" which is the garage loft space.  I would have preferred the house loft at 30'2 x 9'6" but the enabling works, (heating, cooling, flooring) plus noise restrictions after children's bedtime, make this impracticable at a reasonable budget.

[The Stationmaster]

Many thanks, Stationmaster & Miss Prism for all your help.  Diving into xtracad now to see how much of Stourhampton I can fit into 15'6" x 7'7" which is the garage loft space.  I would have preferred the house loft at 30'2 x 9'6" but the enabling works, (heating, cooling, flooring) plus noise restrictions after children's bedtime, make this impracticable at a reasonable budget.

It will be very interesting to see the results of the shoehorning exercise are you more interested in getting on end in 'as planned' or going for teh station platforms as the approximate centre along one side of the room?