hayfield Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I know this is wrong, but depending on who I am talking to I refer to turnouts as points if that is what they know. Lets face it sometimes you have to talk/explain using words and phrases the person you are speaking to understands. I quite often refer to timbers as sleepers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 26, 2014 I thought a trap point had only one point blade, hence the singular and why I chose that example. Not to be confused with catch points which are for a different purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I thought a trap point had only one point blade, hence the singular and why I chose that example. Not to be confused with catch points which are for a different purpose. Well not quite, they are indeed for a different purpose, and the name relates to the purpose not the physical construction, catch points can have a pair of points as in Martin's photo, but very commonly had just one. Similarly trap points can have just a single point or any other combination up to a complete turnout, or quite often half of a double slip. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 But did they ever call one "a point"? Do the rules ever refer to "a point"? It is always plural, because in most cases they are referring to the set of points at one end of a turnout. The typical signal box lever says "Points no. 5". It is very difficult to find "a point" singular used on the real railway, but very common among modellers. regards, Martin. Can't remember exactly what terminology the rule book used in each specific situation, but if a signaller wanted me to confirm where I was (when winding or clipping up), he/she would ask for the "point" number and whether A or B end, and Control and everyone else referred to such instances as a "point" failure. Right or wrong, that's how it was (probably still is) in the vernacular. That's how the English Language works. So railway modellers as a breed are not wrong to use the term, if that is what they want to do. But when designing, constructing or mending the various parts of a turnout, then the correct terminology becomes essential. If you were French, I would better understand the pedantry! There are laws against mis-use of the language here..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2014 So railway modellers as a breed are not wrong to use the term, if that is what they want to do. But when designing, constructing or mending the various parts of a turnout, then the correct terminology becomes essential. If you were French, I would better understand the pedantry! There are laws against mis-use of the language here..... All the examples you give correctly refer to the moving points (blades) and not an entire turnout. Those are the only parts which can normally fail, be frozen in winter, clipped, numbered, rodded, etc. This web site (and my Templot program) is read by members all over the world, and that is universally the meaning of the word point in the English-speaking railway world. A sharply pointed piece of rail. Turnouts have such points, and so do slips, diamonds, catch points, and all track formations. It is only modellers, and only in the UK, who use the term point to mean an entire turnout. Causing much confusion to those outside the UK trying to learn about and understand trackwork. In the USA the word switch is often used to mean an entire turnout, causing similar confusion everywhere else. The object of my pedantry is to make writings on RMweb and the terms used in software, accessible to to English-speaking readers everywhere. How do you know that I am not French? Martin. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 All the examples you give correctly refer to the moving points (blades) and not an entire turnout. Those are the only parts which can normally fail, be frozen in winter, clipped, numbered, rodded, etc. This web site (and my Templot program) is read by members all over the world, and that is universally the meaning of the word point in the English-speaking railway world. A sharply pointed piece of rail. Turnouts have such points, and so do slips, diamonds, catch points, and all track formations. It is only modellers, and only in the UK, who use the term point to mean an entire turnout. Causing much confusion to those outside the UK trying to learn about and understand trackwork. In the USA the word switch is often used to mean an entire turnout, causing similar confusion everywhere else. The object of my pedantry is to make writings on RMweb and the terms used in software, accessible to to English-speaking readers everywhere. How do you know that I am not French? Martin. I believe you must be French, but if so, from Paris. If you were a Breton or Basque, there would be a different word entirely. Seriously, I applaud your desire to standardise terminology across the Empire and its (ex-) Dominions. However, any attempt to make people use certain words because somebody else says they are using the wrong words, is doomed, as much as Esperanto. Those French people who do not belong to the civil service, say all sorts of wrong things, particularly when I am ordering a certain drink, which can have a completely different name just one town away, and my full and frank exchange of views with them about the matter do not have the desired result. I think it is more realistic to accept that these different uses exist and work with or around them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Whether folk choose to use the wrong terminology is entirely up to them. From the horses mouth as it were, here is a diagram from the Union Pacific Railroad's current Technical Specifications. And here's the full list of technical specs, each and every time - it's a turnout. French, American, English or Chinese the parts all have their proper names, and these are standard across the world. Edited July 27, 2014 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Wow I am agreeing with Mickey. I tell you why, I find it confusing when a turnout is locked in one position by a Facing Point Lock, surely it should be a turnout lock? The man with the low fi at Chemlsford station mumbles that the trains are late because of a points failure at Shenfield. Bobbies pull point levers or turn a switch that makes the electric motor in the point machine do its bit. There are more than us toy train fans who call turnouts, "points". Please let us agree that both turnout and point can be used when describing what a PW engineer would call a set of switches and a crossing. Edited July 27, 2014 by Clive Mortimore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 French, American, English or Chinese the parts all have their proper names, and these are standard across the world. If we just stick to English language terminology it is certainly not 'standard across the world'. The diagram you linked to can only be relied on for the UPRR, and then the terms used by the Operations dept. as distinct from the Engineering dept are unlikely to always match, then there are very likely unofficial terms in use by the workers as well. Even within Engineering depts the terms given on that diagram are not all used in the UK, and each of Australia, South Africa, India are different again. Just accept that diversity rules and use words you think your audience will understand. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2014 any attempt to make people use certain words because somebody else says they are using the wrong words, is doomed I am not trying to make anyone use any words. I am stating the established words and their meaning. Everyone is free to choose whether or not to use them. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2014 I tell you why, I find it confusing when a turnout is locked in one position by a Facing Point Lock, surely it should be a turnout lock? The man with the low fi at Chemlsford station mumbles that the trains are late because of a points failure at Shenfield. Bobbies pull point levers or turn a switch that makes the electric motor in the point machine do its bit. In every case that is correctly referring to the points -- the moving pointed pieces of rail: Points are prevented from moving under traffic by a facing point lock. It is not the entire turnout which is prevented from moving. When points fail it is not the entire turnout which has failed. When points can't be moved because of ice it is not the entire turnout which can't be moved. Moving points are connected to the point lever by means of point rodding or operated by a point motor. Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 A self-appointed moderator speaks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 when everyone from modellers to time served railwaymen know exactly whant "points" means. But they don't, as the post from Clive Mortimore clearly demonstrates: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-poll-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork/page-57&do=findComment&comment=1530554 However, I will posted no more, even if provoked again by Mike Storey. Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 If it was necessary to arrive at a productive conclusion, half the topics on RMweb would be ruled out of order. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 28, 2014 Hi Martin I have just looked at my collection of 412 REPW drawings and none of the of ones of switches have anything labled as a point. They are switches, so if the engineers drawings don't call the moving bits points then they are not points but switches. It is a fact of life that most railwaymen and non railwaymen call turnouts "points" and that is that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 A curved diamond would indeed be a great improvement on current offerings. I'm not sure if one could manage the geometry so that there could be just one in the range or if it would need a LH version and a RH version. If only one, the sleepering would, I think, have to be on the diagonal which is right for some UK railways and wrong for others. Perhaps someone on here who is clever with Templot could sketch up an example for us and post it? (To match a No8 turnout, the curved route will want to be about 1m60 radius) Arguably a curved diamond is only for mainline trackage and so one would do the No8 diamond as curved and the No6 diamond straight (for trailing leads into goods yards). I agree that in the UK context a 3-way point is very often useful and would need to be included in the range at some point, probably as a No6. Unfortunately, symmetrical 3-way points are very rare birds in UK practice, requiring provision of right-leading and left-leading tandems. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Hi Martin I have just looked at my collection of 412 REPW drawings and none of the of ones of switches have anything labled as a point. They are switches, so if the engineers drawings don't call the moving bits points then they are not points but switches. It is a fact of life that most railwaymen and non railwaymen call turnouts "points" and that is that. In twenty years of signalling, in regular contact with S&T, P-way and other engineers, I never heard any of them use the word 'turnout'. Not once. If it is used at all in full-size practice, I imagine it might be by those who design and manufacture them to describe the entire assembly or the geometry thereof in the context of project planning. As soon as they come into contact with trains, they become points. John Edited July 28, 2014 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) In every case that is correctly referring to the points -- the moving pointed pieces of rail: Points are prevented from moving under traffic by a facing point lock. It is not the entire turnout which is prevented from moving. When points fail it is not the entire turnout which has failed. When points can't be moved because of ice it is not the entire turnout which can't be moved. Moving points are connected to the point lever by means of point rodding or operated by a point motor. Martin. 1. A facing point lock locks the switches (or switch rails, what modellers tend to call point blades). 2. Apart from the switches and the bits that drive them no other part of a "turnout" moves, so there is nothing else to prevent from moving. 3. Effectively, it has (see 2 above). 4. Effectively, it is (see 2 above). 5. From a signalman's perspective, whatever links him to them, he moves a set of points (or in the case of a crossover, which is double-ended, two sets together). A set of points can be described as a pair of switches, linked together by one or more stretcher bars. When communicating with signallers, engineers generally use the word points or crossover, unless specifically describing individual parts thereof. A crossover will be worked by a single lever or button (or mouse-click) and the two points that make it up are differentiated by referring to them as the A-end and B-end, hence the term double-ended. John PS. For the sake of clarity I am ignoring the existence of switched-diamonds, which are a whole other can of worms, as do the modelling fraternity in general! So far as I know, all points so equipped are power-operated so facing point locks would be inapplicable. Edited July 28, 2014 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 From a signalman's perspective, whatever links him to them, he moves a set of points (or in the case of a crossover, which is double-ended, two sets together). A set of points can be described as a pair of switches, linked together by one or more stretcher bars. Hi John, Perhaps your having all but repeated my first post on the subject: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-poll-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork/page-56&do=findComment&comment=1527577 the subject can now be considered closed? regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 Hi John, Perhaps your having all but repeated my first post on the subject: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-poll-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork/page-56&do=findComment&comment=1527577 the subject can now be considered closed? regards, Martin. Apologies. I am relatively new to this thread and hadn't gone back that far. It was your wording in post 1406 that 'set me off'. If the word turnout is to be used at all, for me it would mean the entire object that modellers call "a point", and the last thing anybody wants is for the whole thing to move! Regards John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I have lost the point to this - shall we switch to something else?.................I'll turnout the lights. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggzuk Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 A self-appointed moderator speaks. Or do you mean "apturnouted" ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 28, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2014 Could someone please PM me when this thread gets back on topic? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foulounoux Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Is this still going on, it's like watching a Geoffrey Boycott test innings hours have passed but the score is the same Mind you this is more enlightening Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Anyone made anything yet?.....:-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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