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Pragmatic Pre-Grouping - Mikkel's Workbench


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Thanks Brassey, that would explain the difference in spectacle windows which is quite noticeable once you are aware of it. Or could it have something to do with the footplate width, and hence the cab width? Compare the windows in Craig's two photos here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97672-pragmatic-pre-grouping-mikkels-workbench/?p=2780230

 

 

I note that, despite the marked disparity in size, on both locos the spectacle windows are only just off the fireboxes.  Interesting.

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Cab windows. As they are bigger than I thought, I can't use the ones I had planned to fit. So new ones were fabricated today from watch gear wheels. 

 

I cut out the centers and filed the wheels on the inside with a tapered file, then filed the teeth away on the outside by mounting the gears on the same tapered file and rolling them against a flat file. High tech it is not :)  

 

35919452141_a8b4ffe197_c.jpg

 

 

I thought they were done but from the photo it looks like one needs a bit more work :pardon:

 

35919452031_2a0a691225_c.jpg

Edited by Mikkel
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In the UK, television coverage of the Tour de France is sponsored by a pre-owned watch merchant. Now I understand his market.

 

You can get bags of the stuff on ebay (thanks again Julia): 

 

P2016576.jpg

 

 

They are useful and fun to play around with,I used them on my cranes for the goods depot at Farthing:

 

P2036558.jpg

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Interestingly, the front splashers in the Finney kit incorporates a cut-out of the front splasher alongside the smokebox.

 

The 4mm kit needed to cater for 00 wheels, and I suspect no significant artwork changes were made when pressing the 7/4 button.

 

Here's 2483 at the end of its life:

 

post-133-0-87528000-1500739037.jpg

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The 4mm kit needed to cater for 00 wheels, and I suspect no significant artwork changes were made when pressing the 7/4 button.

 

Here's 2483 at the end of its life:

 

attachicon.gif2483.jpg

 

Thanks Miss P, that's a good photo of the front splashers - and the pattern of the snap head rivets on the smokebox. While we're sharing photos:

 

I found this excerpt from Lost Lines of Wales, which shows a Dean Goods on loan to the Manchester & Milford in 1905/6: https://graffeg-paragonconsultan.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/9781909823198_IN03.jpg

 

Also, Craig showed us no. 2455, here it is in later life, still lots of character: https://www.flickr.com/photos/phillisca/3126412740/

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Daily baby steps on the Dean Goods. I have received a 3D printed chimney from Alan's Shapeways shop, the latter ordered in brass to see how that material comes out in a 3D print. The capuchon wasn’t present on my prototype, so I have since filed it off. Also in the parcel was Alan’s rather neat boiler washout plugs.

 
36240474215_1ee4802966_c.jpg
 
 
I have built the splashers. They consist of three components - a side, an overlay with the bands, and a top. 
 
36240477025_acdd30eee0_c.jpg
 
 
Internal strengthening with further layers was critical to make them sufficiently robust.
 
35434861733_211b8e3c9c_c.jpg
 
 
Here is the current state of play. Nothing fixed in place yet. Seeing this photo made me wonder about the splashers. They had a very slight edge along the curve which I have tried to capture, but it looks like I have overdone it. Must see what can be done about that. 

 
35848015160_c8f58c804b_c.jpg
 
 
Meanwhile the smokebox still needs shortening, and I need to settle on the right dome. The one seen here is an extra large specimen that I dug out. 

Edited by Mikkel
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I'm still thinking about this but haven't yet tried the boiled boiler experiment - I'd thought of trying it out for a round-topped Midland 2441 Class from the Hornby LMS 3F 0-6-0T but it's a no go for other reasons. I've gathered that the Oxford wheels are a little on the large size - 21 mm diameter? How much closer to scale have you got with the plasticard splashers - smaller than the Mainline ones?

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 Also in the parcel was Alan’s rather neat boiler washout plugs.

 

Mikkel, be aware that on all the photos of the earlier DGs that Craig posted on your thread here, there are only 3 washout plugs per side on the firebox.  On the Finney kit with a later S4 boilers there were another 2 lower down on the firebox and another 2 per side on top of the boiler.

 

post-13283-0-20871500-1501343043.jpg

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I'm still thinking about this but haven't yet tried the boiled boiler experiment - I'd thought of trying it out for a round-topped Midland 2441 Class from the Hornby LMS 3F 0-6-0T but it's a no go for other reasons. I've gathered that the Oxford wheels are a little on the large size - 21 mm diameter? How much closer to scale have you got with the plasticard splashers - smaller than the Mainline ones?

 

My new calipers say the Oxford wheels are 20.62 mms plus flanges (I forget the width over the flanges, hard to measure as the brakes are in the way, will check next time I dismantle the chassis).

 

The Oxford Splashers are approx. 21mm wide x 6mm high and x 3.2mms deep. The flanges are visible behind the splashers:

 

35409512384_e41d515a1e_c.jpg

 

 

I made my splashers 20 x 5 x 4 mms. I could probably have made them smaller, but I wanted to be on the safe side. Here's a not so good view of the clearance.

 

36201871296_b58a18ac95_c.jpg

 

Edit: The Mainline Dean Goods splashers are 20.3 mms wide x 5.3 high. The depth is different for each splasher, but around 5 mms.

Edited by Mikkel
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Mikkel, be aware that on all the photos of the earlier DGs that Craig posted on your thread here, there are only 3 washout plugs per side on the firebox.  On the Finney kit with a later S4 boilers there were another 2 lower down on the firebox and another 2 per side on top of the boiler.

 

attachicon.gifround_top_dean_goods2.jpg

 

Thanks Brassey, in fact most of my photos of roundtopped boilers only show 3 plugs. Although here is one (two?) with 5 plugs: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107457-oxford-rail-announces-oo-gauge-gwr-dean-goods/?p=2182041

 

I can't see any direct relationship to the boiler type. But around 1900 three seem to have been the norm.

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Update from the workbench. Progress on the Park Royal stable block has been slow and laborious, not least due to the roof vents, which turned out to be a whole project in itself.

37199276914_831a5a3963.jpg
 
 
As described earlier, I made the basic “box” like this: 
 
34952666582_22569faf5b_c.jpg
 
 
Since then I’ve made the roofs for the, er, roof vents. Like this:
 
37199277374_dcb309308b_c.jpg
 
24057072038_32c8102606_c.jpg
 
37860496966_c66390bb0d_c.jpg
 
24057180088_221dbb9158_c.jpg
 
26132733059_a909dfa08f_c.jpg
 
37199277014_f770671e2c_c.jpg
 
37866405806_4344aa69fe_c.jpg
 
 
Fiddly and not perfect, but it's time to move on. 
 
I'm confused about the flashing. The drawing suggests flashing on top of the slates all around the roof vents. But two RMweb threads on the subject seem to suggest (after some debate) that the flashing should be under the slates along the sides, and over the slates at the front.
 
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14279-flashing-on-the-roof/
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/22052-lead-flashing/
 
My available prototype photos of this and other GWR stables aren't clear enough to show what is right in this case - although looking closely I can't really see any flashing at all!

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I'm confused about the flashing. The drawing suggests flashing on top of the slates all around the roof vents. But two RMweb threads on the subject seem to suggest (after some debate) that the flashing should be under the slates along the sides, and over the slates at the front.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14279-flashing-on-the-roof/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/22052-lead-flashing/

 

My available prototype photos of this and other GWR stables aren't clear enough to show what is right in this case - although looking closely I can't really see any flashing at all!

 

Oh dear those threads are too informative by half; I've just leant I've been doing chimneys wrong and should have soakers down the sides, flashing along the straight edge at the bottom. Seems to borne out by photos - this one is modern but gives the terminology; the difficulty is being confident that what you're looking at hasn't been renewed and hence represents modern rather than 19th/early 20th century practice.

 

Oh well. I have to admit mine were only Metcalfe terraces so flashing over the slates down the sides if the chimneys is the least of my compromises and better than nothing!

Edited by Compound2632
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Hi Mikkel

On an external angles the leadwork goes over the slates, working like a ridge tile. Internal angles, like a valley, the soakers go under the slates, the same where the slates abut masonry like a chimney or gable end.

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There are bdifferent styles of flashing partly choice and partly where prevailing weather conditions demand. In an exposed condition the wind can drive rain upwards. On a slate lean to roof the felt was taken up the wall an inch or two. The Lead was chased into the wall above it and draped down and out over the slates. However driving rain was lushed up the slates up and over the felt to run down inside. Sometimes there is lead under and over the tiles/slates sometimes it can be over one layer but under the next as each layer reaches the sIde of the chimney a piece of L shaped lead is placed over the the tile  and chased into the chiney brickwork. This will be partly covered by the next piece which is chased into the next  course of brickwork above it can be left like this or covered with the more usual stepped sheet of lead. The photo below shows a typical chimney there is a sheet of lead at the rear under the tiles to create a V shaped valley at the sides it will be dressed out over the lower tiles  and the stepped side pieces.

I hope the photo shows how it may be done. The layer of lead above the main flashing runs the full width of the bricks it creates a DPC to stop water soaking own through the brickwork and getting behind the stepped pieces which are only chased in a short way.

 

Don

 

 

 

post-8525-0-20156000-1508932875_thumb.jpg

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Albeit on a modern roof the general methods haven't changed much over the decades as shown below and my be more in keeping with flashing any hipped roof structure.

 

post-20303-0-99598700-1508941215.jpeg

 

Grahame

 

p.s. Ask me how I know after 40 years plus in the construction industry!

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There are bdifferent styles of flashing partly choice and partly where prevailing weather conditions demand. In an exposed condition the wind can drive rain upwards. On a slate lean to roof the felt was taken up the wall an inch or two. The Lead was chased into the wall above it and draped down and out over the slates. However driving rain was lushed up the slates up and over the felt to run down inside. Sometimes there is lead under and over the tiles/slates sometimes it can be over one layer but under the next as each layer reaches the sIde of the chimney a piece of L shaped lead is placed over the the tile  and chased into the chiney brickwork. This will be partly covered by the next piece which is chased into the next  course of brickwork above it can be left like this or covered with the more usual stepped sheet of lead. The photo below shows a typical chimney there is a sheet of lead at the rear under the tiles to create a V shaped valley at the sides it will be dressed out over the lower tiles  and the stepped side pieces.

I hope the photo shows how it may be done. The layer of lead above the main flashing runs the full width of the bricks it creates a DPC to stop water soaking own through the brickwork and getting behind the stepped pieces which are only chased in a short way.

 

Don

 

 

 

attachicon.gifFlashing.jpg

The tray is too high on this chimney. Will let water into the brick work below and into the house.

Albeit on a modern roof the general methods haven't changed much over the decades as shown below and my be more in keeping with flashing any hipped roof structure.

attachicon.gifimage.jpeg

Grahame

p.s. Ask me how I know after 40 years plus in the construction industry!

very nice did you do the rolls¿
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The tray is too high on this chimney. Will let water into the brick work below and into the house.

very nice did you do the rolls¿

 

No Pete due to the roof slope it needs to be at that height in case it snows. The lead at the front could be brought all the way down so no brick is visible below it but no rain was getting in so I didn't touch it.

I did have to replace the lead rolls on another place. The nail holes had stretch to 3 inch long. It was very thick lead each piece was well over 1cwt. Very tricky trying to handle with only a ladder the new was only half as thick and much easier to handle. 

Don

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No Pete due to the roof slope it needs to be at that height in case it snows. The lead at the front could be brought all the way down so no brick is visible below it but no rain was getting in so I didn't touch it.

I did have to replace the lead rolls on another place. The nail holes had stretch to 3 inch long. It was very thick lead each piece was well over 1cwt. Very tricky trying to handle with only a ladder the new was only half as thick and much easier to handle. 

Don

Not understanding that as the tray normally comes out over the apron. The back gutter soakers and flashing keep the water etc out of the roof. Any soaking through the bricks gets stopped by the tray. Which is upturned on the inside and then down turned over the apron allowing any water out. If breast is in a room you stepped tray, again final outlet over apron.

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Thanks gents for these insights, very useful.

 

I was uncertain whether the principles discussed above would also apply to my "roof vents". It eventually dawned upon me that the search term I should be using for this kind of structure is a "cupola". This led to the following (modern day) examples of flashing on ventilator cupolas:

 

post-738-0-07492100-1508995046.jpg

 

post-738-0-41582800-1508995050.png

 

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