Brassey

This all looked great at the Manchester show.  Might be worth a trip to York now just to see the new coaches.

After almost 10 years the DX Goods is nearing completion:

This has been hard to build in P4.  I found that when I fitted the rear steps the cranks fouled on these so off they came and back on slightly further apart.  I think this was due to my having changed the valance for 1mm brass angle.  That was also due to clearance issues.  The kit was missing the blower valve but LRM supplied one.  I also slimmed down the wheels and wondering now whether the balance weights on the wheels might foul on the rods.  Still got to fit the cab details.

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

A little detail:

The toolbox has it's padlock hooked over the end handle.

Presumably it's unlocked?

Brassmasters do an etch of the padlocks in the Finney range if you want to recreate that detail.  Part E14:

https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_etched_components.htm

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

It's interesting how the two-tone livery lingered on in some cases. These are Windsor Royal Garden Party trains alledgedly in 1913. Stock at the back in brown/crimson lake. You'd be forgiven for speculating that the GWR kept some two-tone stock in hand for certain events!

I seem to recall reading that the King preferred the LNWR Royal Train and this was kept in LNWR livery even into the LMS days, so maybe there was a royal fondness/connection to two-tone liveries.

Railmotor at Bewdley.  Acknowledging the adjacent LNWR tail-traffic through carriage from Woofferton to Birmingham, the contemporary GWR stock is in chocolate and cream.

My version; no.1425 in brown complete with dodgy lining and wrongly place garter crest on the PBV:

Not so rare. You can tell it's the brown scheme from the lining and the cream cab insides:

RCTS lists all the brown 517's.  Most if not all had full cabs and outside bearings to the trailing wheels.  Most were probably also autofitted at some time.

PS: just the clarify, the lining on green locos was 2 orange lines whereas this has only one.  You can see that around the cab the lining is edged in black

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That has, by its omission of lining around the door eves panel, led to confusion, as I gather.

in both instances the gold/ochre lining is on the quadrant. The shape of the quadrant on a plastic kit is different to that on an etched kit. Some have commented that the Slaters kits are more of a challenge to line. 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

One of the 517s with brown and cream bodywork. I'm not sure when the GWR began to adopt 'Halt' rather than 'Halte'. Not sure either when the bodywork was removed - it was only a fleeting fashion.

 

 

The previous picture to this in Edwardian Enterprise states "the first GWR auto-train at Southall" so the colour scheme possibly dates back to then.

I do not know how long the colours lasted but I have a 517, no. 1425, on my layout set in 1912 still in brown.  It's my only homage to the brown livery but if anyone has evidence to the contrary please let me know.

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I note the reference to a "GWR Paint Committee 1912-1927" - I haven't dug very deeply into TNA catalogue or NRM searchengine for this; can anyone give me the reference? 

The author states he had access to the minutes of the Paint Committee.  The first Chairman in 1912 was Stanier's father.  I cannot see if he says where the minutes reside though as it is a Great Western Study Group publication they may well know or indeed have them.

4 hours ago, Regularity said:

Several 517s were painted in chocolate brown, lined yellow-black-yellow, to match the auto coaches which had been painted in brown. They were known as “chocolate soldiers”. (For example references see the WSP book on the Abbotsbury Branch by Jackson.)

 

To me, this provides rather more evidence that brown was actually used between 1908 and 1912 than does the speculation provided that actually it was red. I imagine that the all-over brown looked very nice when fresh, but looked rather too shabby after a couple of years, and that as repaints became due, it was changed to the red.

The brown locos were painted well before 1908 in the early Churchward period and intended to match the contemporary Chocolate and Cream carriage stock.  The cabsides were originally cream as were the cab interiors.  There is at least one picture shewing the cream cabsides.   I lined mine in orange.

IIRC some 850's got an overall coachlike body painted to match the carriages too.  I think the pics are in Edwardian Enterprise.

28 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Molesworth's Pocket Book of Engineering Formulae for 1912 gives the following in a very short section about painting:

Carriage Painting.

"Number of coats, Railway Carriage Painting (L. & N. W. R.)

New work: 3 coats white priming; and stop brad holes. 4 coats filling. 1 coat staining and rub down. 1 coat lead colour, stop and face with pumice stone, 2 coats lead colour, 1 coat brown, 2 coats lake, 4 coats varnish.

Note! Not more than 1 coat a day, and two days between coats of varnish.  Varnish to contain no gold size.

 

Not GWR but the principle of a brown base coat (probably opaque colour) with lake (fairly transparent colour) followed by a good deal of varnish (highly transparent, but not colourless) seems to provide the ex works colour.  The concern here, however, seems to be more about the work involved than the colour achieved as the end result.  Whilst I'm fascinated by these historical references, I don't think it's providing many answers to the questions of what colour? and when? It slightly reminds me of the joke (I laughed anyway, 40 years ago) about the head chef asking the sous-chef what's in the large cooking pot - "it's bean soup" comes the reply to which the chef responds "I don't care what it's been, what is it now?".

 

Kit PW

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

 

 

 

The make up of LNWR paints is covered in the book LNWR Liveries Talbot et al. But no such equivalent detail is documented on GWR paints. 
 

That is with the exception of the GWS book “Structure Colours 1912-1947 From Official Sources” by Richard North. This includes the work of the GWR Paint Committee 1912-1927. 
 

I guess there are not too many people interested enough in pre-grouping carriages for anyone to have fully researched the official sources on that. Any volunteers?

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

There's plenty of loco livery changes the mags didn't report.

but 2 of the magazines reported on ONE County Tank being turned out in Crimson Lake in 1909 but none of them noticed a change to the entire carriage fleet in 1912?

As I’ve said before, the only way to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various paint committees at the GWR to see if there is a mention. 

So despite this being a homage to the brown livery, in conclusion Mikkel, you too are now coming round to the opinion that the "brown" period never actually existed and is fake news.

The fact is that you have researched but found no mention of a change in 1912 in the Railway Magazine ,  I have found nothing in The Locomotive Magazine of the time.  And GWW confirms that it was totally missed by the Great Western Magazine too.  And the reason why it was not reported is the change in 1912 NEVER HAPPENED; the colour was red from 1908.

The Locomotive Magazine, August 1909:

"GREAT WESTERN RY. The large passenger engines are now allowed to work up and down to South Wales, via Gloucester. No. 2679, 2-6-0 mineral engine, has been fitted with Mr. Churchward's new pattern of super- heater. No. 2225, 4-4-2 tank, has been painted experimentally chocolate red with yellow lining, and black below the footplate. "

Chocolate Red?  I think RCTS has this loco painted "Crimson Lake".  Are they the same colour?

My interest in all this is piqued because I am currently building a rake of these coaches: a brake third, 2 x all thirds, a compo and an old K’s 40’ PBV. The latter and one of the C10’s in Crimson Lake. The formation has an LNWR Though carriage to London attached at the rear. 
 

As eluded to, I am struggling with the lining so attention has turned to the bogies. Incidentally the compo ran on 6’ 4” bogies.  Mikkel you have reminded me of the poor reputation of the Slater bogies so I will try plan A and use Brassmasters torsion bogies. 
 

Peter

It's hard to tell but I think on this 40' PBV there are two garter crests; one under each GWR:

It is attached to an LNWR corridor vehicle on a through train.

PS: I would speculate that the horse box is also in Crimson Lake particularly as the white roof suggests a recent repaint

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

At the time you mentioned a discussion on another forum. The gwr e-list maybe?

 

Yes that’s correct though I think it’s moved servers since. 
 

it may not have been just the varnish but the undercoat too. If the GWR used the same undercoat as they did for the brown in the brown and cream livery then this would have soon shown through if they skimped on the topcoat and this wore off. 

The only way to try to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various GWR committee meetings that should reside in the National archives. Of course you are looking for a minute that may not exist if the change never happened. 
 

So I have resolved to paint my stock crimson lake (1912) and nothing in full brown.  The single line livery is also quite a challenge to line because there is no black on the raised moulding against which to clean up a wonky line.  The choice of paint is crucial as anything too thin will spread making a thicker line than intended; not to mention the colour. I have acquired some PP Gorse Yellow gloss with which to experiment. 

I have mentioned before on here and elsewhere that many are of the opinion that there was never a brown period. Rather the change in 1908 was to lake which weathered to brown quickly until the GWR got to grips with red paint. As acknowledged in GWW, there is no contemporary record of a change in 1912

11 hours ago, wenlock said:

Thanks Brassey, glad you found the answer you were looking for 🙂

Not only that but I’ve ordered the paint from Phoenix Precision.: M&GN Gorse Yellow 

10 hours ago, Brassey said:

That's fantastic particularly the lining!  Can I ask what colour you use for the gold lining?

I've answered my own question by reading your next subject on the all 3rd where it is detailed!

That's fantastic particularly the lining!  Can I ask what colour you use for the gold lining?

Manchester London Road (when it looked like a proper station):

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

What interested me about the High Wycombe photo is that the GWR and GCR poster boards have the same design - and that it appears to be the GWR's:

 

Having the same design display boards was not uncommon.  This is Woofferton and although poor quality, shows GWR and L&NWR  boards.  Note the white windows.

In terms of charging for hoardings, did they charge the same for a poster at Paddington and Reading for example? How long did a poster stay up and how long was it charged for?  And who was responsible for posting it?

Presumably "Advertising Agents" were involved as intermediaries and brokered the space.  Nowadays it's easy to just send a digital file.  But back then they had to print and distribute posters.  Was it organsised or was it random?