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Hi, I've not been here for a while but I spotted this thread by chance on Google and as I'm currently building the Scorpio kit of the 3MT, I thought I'd have a look. From what I've seen here and on their stand at Guildex, Dapol are making an excellent job of it. It will probably be the death knell for the Scorpio kit which is a very old design with many faults. Although a relatively cheap kit to buy, when you add on the cost of a decent motor/gearbox, a set of Slaters' wheels and a few replacement castings from Laurie Griffin and Ragstone, you've spent more or less the cost of the Dapol analogue version of their RTR model. And then you have to build and paint it! As others on here, notably Jim Snowden have pointed out, the Scorpio kit is not the easiest of builds with many faults, so I can't see anybody wanting a 3MT to run on their layout buying this kit in future. Unless of course like me, you like and prefer to build your models from kits. Negative comments aside, it can be made into a decent model. There's still a lot to do but this is the state of play so far. It is heavily modified with many scratch built parts including the bunker, brake pull rods, brake crank and cylinder plus detailed front pony trucks with the rear one modified to represent the swing link version fitted to the prototype. For anybody interested, the build is documented on Western Thunder. Cheers, Peter

Hi Mike , I could be wrong but I don't think the ashpan sides should be flush with the inner face of the frames. If they were, there would be no room between the front edges of ashpan and the rear spring hangers on the middle axle. I set the sides inboard of frames so I could fit the scratched up plastic laminates to the springs. It's not a critical point, but I think even in 4mm, the appearance would be improved by setting them inboard a little This could be done by soldering them to the spacer before fitting. Cheers, Peter

On the 7mm model I used a Laurie Griffin Ivatt class 2 chimney. However, the Ivatt 2s carried three different chimneys, a tall thin version, a medium wider version and a shorter wide version. I used the last one but had to to reduce the height by about 3mm by sawing in two, filing down and resoldering the parts together with a sleeve inside for strength. This is a link to the chimney. He also does the tall and medium version. https://www.lgminiatures.co.uk/product/6-017-lms-ivatt-2mt-locomotive/ Hope this helps you chaps in sourcing a suitable 4mm chimney. Cheer, Peter

Hi Gordon, Just had a quick look in one or two books on LMS locos and can find plenty of illustrations showing locos with ribbed steam pipes. These shots of 2500 taken at the NRM also show ribbed steam pipes so I am not sure you correct. I haven't spent any time looking, but I dare say it would be possible to find examples that are smooth as well, but I'm happy with the ones I've fitted. Cheers, Peter

Hi Mike, Thought you might be interested to see how the 7mm Stanier 3P turned out. I completed it earlier this week apart from the motor, pick ups and painting. Despite having no instructions I found it very easy to build and the fit of the parts was excellent. The photos in your build thread and the drawings provided, were off course a big help. One or two further observations that might be relevant to the 4mm builders. First I found that the "cork" added to the oil reservoir in the big end of the connecting rod fouled the underside of the side tanks at the top of the stroke. I had to cut a rectangular slot to eliminate this. Looking at the GA drawings, it appears that this was an issue on the prototype as there is an arch in the bottom of the tank. I also found that the top of the expansion link did the same and again, I cut a slot to give clearance. However, I think in the latter case it was due to the valve gear assembly made as a detatchable sub section, not being lined up correctly. I have since added additional spacers to screw it in place. I think that the slot is now redundant , but it can't be seen. The laminated balance pipe is a neat idea and much better than a white metal casting. Your design for the cab floor to be fixed to the frames allowing access to the cab for painting as the roof is intended to be soldered in place, was not to my liking. I appreciate that getting a good fit for the roof is essential, so I understand your methodology. However, Tony Geary (Dibateg) came up with a good method of achieving a tight fitting roof that is removable on his Stanier 4P, which has a similar cab and roof. First, the sides of the roof below the rain strip are cut off and a length of 2x1mm brass L section soldered to the upper edge to represent the rain strip. This is positioned to overhang the roof. The cut off roof pieces are then soldered in place either side and the central roof part is then shaped as normal to match the curve of the cab front and back. Some trimming and filing was needed to get a good fit, but once achieved it can be sprung in and out under the rain strips giving a tight fitting front and back. In 4mm scale you could probably do it with 1x1mm strip, although it might look better if the vertical part of the L section was filed down. Anyway, enough bla bla, here are the pictures. T'other side. Most of the cast parts needed to complete the model were available commercially and those that weren't were scratch built, or in some cases modified from castings, most notably the chimney which is from an Ivatt class 2. And a view from the front. The brake and steam heat pipes are scratch built and the couplings are by Dapol. They are somewhat generic in appearance but quite cheap compared to cast offerings and are ready to use. This was my first experience of your kits and a really enjoyable build. Hopefully I'll get to build some more in the future All the best and stay healthy. Cheers, Peter

Hi Dave, My apologies for the off topic comments. Good luck with the sales of the A4. Cheers, Peter

Hi Rbird, It doesn't need a repaint. Ignore the flap issue it's nothing compared to the turn in on the tender front which is a hang over from the A3, no doubt standardised by Hattons to keep the cost down. Adding a length of beading, buying the nearest paint option and adding a bit of red or yellow or whatever it needs to match the existing colour is neither here not there. As to the comment made earlier about the impact on collectors, do they care? Surely they collect items for what they are not what they should be. The short falls in authenticity in Hornby Dublo, Basset Lowke or tin plate doesn't deter collectors. If you want a value for money A3 or A4, then buy one. If you are a modeller then you can correct the errors if you wish. If you cannot correct the errors and they bother you so much, don't buy one. There are other RTR options but as I said before you have to pay a lot more for them. You get what you pay for - simple.

First of all, let me say I have no connection to Hattons, have no interest in purchasing RTR models of the A3 or A4, but would suggest that they should be congratulated for developing two fine 7mm LNER Pacifics and bringing the to market for £750. The amount of whinging and whining about this or that shape, this or that detail beggars belief! These are ready to run models for layout running, not exhibition standard display models. L. H. Loveless, and others do those sort of models for 2 grand a throw. Don't want one of those, then you can buy a DJH or Finney 7 kit of both for around £650. Then there's £150 or so for wheels and £100 for a decent motor/gearbox. Oh, and then you have to build them, let's say 120 hours of work. Oh, then you have to paint and line them. Don't want to do either, then you have to pay for it to be done. I may be wrong but I would guess that most people capable of building these kits to a least the standard of the Hatton's RTR models will be over 25 ( that's the demographic in 0 Gauge), so on the national minimum wage that's £8.21/hour, costing you another £985. So for going on 2 grand, you can buy a top end kit, the wheels and the motor and have it built to at least the standard of the Hatton's models (most likely better). Then you have to pay for a good pro to paint it so a few hundred quid more. Or you can can buy something RTR from the likes of Mr. Loveless for 2 grand plus. Those of you who won't be buying one now because the valve gear is toy like, or the cab handrail is missing, or you don't know where to source the wire and the knobs to fit the handrail, make me ill. Years ago before 4mm RTR was as good as it is now, modellers would scrape off the moulded handrails and fire irons and super detail them. Or buy a kit and build it themselves, because they were modellers. So congratulations Hattons Dave for a cracking RTR A4 and A3 at cracking prices! So just to reiterate to the whingers, for £750, you won't get these. Finney 7 A4. Oh and look, I had to add the rivets around the casing joints at the front and the rivets on the lower doors because they weren't there. The valve gear is authentic and is reversible on both models and the lubricator linkage works on the A4. But if you don't want toy like valve gear, you have to build it yourself. Although to be fair to Hattons, their valve gear is better than is seen on many kit built models, so no excuses on this point. Or this. Finney7 A3. PS. I have no connection to Finney7. I'm just a satisfied customer of their excellent products. Rant over.

Just to complete the picture regarding the rear truck and brake rigging, I've scratched up the brake shaft support etc. and clearance is fine in 7mm. However, to be safe, I reduced the length of the shaft and bracket width to give a bit more clearance. I think it should be possible to do something similar in 4mm if required, but I don't know what parts Mike will include. Heres the bracket ready to fit. It is screwed to an extra spacer added to the frames as it needs to be detachable as the rear most pull rod coincides with the bogie pivot screw. The hand brake crank at the rear should be separate from the vacuum brake crank but I made them as one for simplicity. As with the bracket width, its not noticeable on the rails. Here it is installed. The truck is screwed in place first, then the end of the pull rod is inserted into a hole in the cross shaft shackle and the bracket inserted between the truck frames and screwed to the spacer. Please not, the cross shafts and shackles are scratch built, not the etched parts. I didn't add the brake cylinder as this is totally hidden up inside the frames. Here you can see the degree of swing that is available for the truck which gives no problems on the curves. I didn't use Mike's compensation system on the rear axle, so I don't know if those parts would be impacted on by the extra brake fittings. Sorry for the hijacks Mike, but as this is a direct scale up of the 4mm etchings I thought it might be of interest. Thanks again for letting me have the spare 7mm etchings. Nothing fancy about the design, but the fit of the parts has been excellent and a joy to build. I like your philosophy on not adding parts that can only be seen by picking up the model , although I do like to add the brake rigging in more detail, but that's easy to do and after all we are supposed to be modellers. Good luck with the sales of the 4mm version. Cheers, Peter

The forum wouldn't let me add further images in the lasts post but this image shows the U frame placed on the A frame and the extra clearance it affords. But viewed on the track it's not possible to see if it's an A or U frame. Cheers, Peter

I would agree with that Mike. Whilst the U frame offers clearance to represent the brake shaft bracket, it offers nothing visually when the model is on the track. This afternoon I removed the A frame from the rear truck and scratched up a U frame, purely to allow some clearance. Here's the front and rear trucks for comparison. And in the frames. Clearly there's much more space for the brake detail.

Damn! Looks like I'll have to scratch up the U frame after all. Can't have the 4mm boys showing me up.

Hi Duncan, As you are aware, Mike kindly offered to sell me the spare set of 7mm test etches that he had after I enquired if he would be making it available in 7mm. Originally I intended to modify the rear truck to have a U frame as per the prototype. This may have allowed for full modelling of the brake crank, brackets and the brake cylinder. However, even on a 7 mm model it will not be visible so I've decided to stay with the pony as designed. As you can see in this view, once the cab steps are in place all that will be visible will be the last part of the pull rod and the bottom of the crank. I doubt if the fact that the truck has an A frame as opposed to U frame will show when the step is on, so it's highly unlikely that it will show in 4mm. I leave it to Mike to comment on how the kit will be on released, but I've decided it doesn't bring much to the party to be worth the effort. Also bear in mind that with a prototype brake rigging set up above the rear truck, there may not be clearance for the truck on curves, even with a U frame. By the way, if the 4mm version goes together as well as the 7mm set of etchings have, you 4mm boys have a real treat to look forward to. Bearing in mind, that I purchased a spare set of test etchings, I have been able to build this model without any instructions whatsoever. The design of the kit is very simple but everything fits as it should. Please note, Mike only supplied the etchings for this build and all the detail parts are from proprietary 7mm sources or the spares box. For those of you on Western Thunder who may be interested, there is a full write up of the build so far. Cheers, Peter

Thanks Michael.

Hi Michael, The Stanier 3P looks very nice. Will it be available as a kit on your range, or is it a one off just for yourself? Cheers, Peter

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Hi Deano, Many thanks. Hope you enjoy the threads on WT. The MOK and Finney 7 kits are a joy to build. Complex yes, but as everything fits so precisely, they are very easy to build, if you already have experience of building etched kits. I would agree with Ray's comments on his MOK 4F thread that although the instruction are brilliant on the whole, in certain areas of the build they do go a little AWOL and leave you head scratching. The new Finney 7 instructions are also superb and can be viewed on their website. They have also added revisions based on their own and other's observations, to improve on the already very good instructions by Martin Finney. Here's a view of the cab before the roof was soldered on. Note the handles on the valves on the right hand side. These were fitted as instructed, but it was pointed out to me that they should be 4 spoke wheels with a peg. Also there is one control handle and shaft missing for the injectors below the cab. There is a hole in the splasher to fit is but no mention in the instructions. It should in fact be mounted on a bracket off the splasher. but I will go for the easy option and fit into the hole with epoxy. I can still get to it from underneath. The cab floor and back plate are removable via some tabs and slots at the front and a simple clasp at the rear. This will allow for painting inside the cab and adding the glazing. Here's the back plate after changing the handles to the 4 spoke wheels. There are loads of spares on the etch And a gratuitous shot on my brother's railway. Interestingly, there was a reply before yours from another contributor, that is not there now. I won't go into detail, but it was well out of order and I assume it has been taken down by the moderator, which is just as well as I would have reported it. I'll say no more, other than I'd rather the individual in question, does not post on my threads. Cheers, Peter

Hi Deano,I started posting on Western Thunder as well as RMW. I then, for a number of reasons, decided just to post on WT. I do most of my posts from my phone and find it much easier to add images and edit the threads on WT than on here. I've just about finished MOK 4MT and have now started on the Finney 7 A4. You will find the threads in the Area 51 section. And having this thread pop up reminds me that I must arrange to pick up the Duchess from Warren Haywood. It will give me a chance to see some more of his artistry up close. Here's a couple of views of the 4MT. Cheers, Peter

Hi David, Nice work. Removing the jig sooner rather than later, gives the opportunity to offer up the frames, to check for any clearance issues. However, you will need to handle it with care now. Cheers, Peter

Hi Ray, If your price is right, the Acme one would be a good kit for an experienced builder who's budget doesn't run to the MOK kit. It can be made into a decent model, but it has many challenges. These are not the best of images, but it shows what can be done. Cheers, Peter

Hi Ray, Nice work on the tender chassis. If I read your original post correctly you also have or had, the Acme kit for the Ivatt 4F. Many years ago I built the College Models kit which Acme took on, so the same kit. Believe me you made the right choice in going for the MOK kit instead. The Acme kit is truly awful. Mine turned out OK in the end but it was a nightmare to build compared to MOK. I've not built the 4F but am close to finishing the BR 4MT, which has been an absolute joy. It's like comparing a Model T Ford to the latest BMW. I look forward to seeing how you get on. There's a build on Dibateg's thread that you might find useful. Cheers, Peter

Hi Michael, For 7mm kit building you do not need the heavy duty version. Postage will depend on the weight, but I am on holiday in Germany so cannot check mine. Perhaps somebody else on here can tell you and you can check on line the postage cost. That will of course depend which courier is used. If you have the GW number, give him a call and I'm sure he will advise you. Cheers, Peter

As a footnote, here it is with the cab glazing complete. It will be on Warren Haywood's stand at Telford if anybody would like to see it in the flesh. Cheers, Peter

Hi Jim, Thanks for the clarification on the artwork. From what I've seen of your work I'm sure it will be an excellent likeness, with the missing 7mm only apparent if the model is placed next to one of the correct scale length. Cheers, Peter