t-b-g

34 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Happily though 'operational interest' is a very moveable feast!

 

For some an endless procession of rapid-turnarount D/EMUs is the height of excitement...I couldn't imagine a more tedious way to murder my free time! For others the sense of 'here and back again' you get with a runround loop is the dream; others still would be happy pottering about indefinitely on a section of marshalling yard, others the trips and spotting work such yards generated, roleplaying a station pilot  or the driver of thundering crack express passenger services ruining the peace and quite of the best 'railway in landscape' layouts etc etc etc ad nauseam.

 

For us lot interested in layout design there's a lot to be learned from each view, as often there are ways to incorporate elements from a 'secondary' style of working that can lift even the smallest plans into layouts of a lifetime :)

19 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It's interesting that simple designs can be interesting to operate as complex ones.

 

But I think it's important to operate them in a manner that elicits interest, an example is a model I saw operated at Stafford, it had no fiddleyard and represented the end of a small short line.  This first time I saw it I spent a good half hour or more watching the shunting and it really got the brain juices going to replicate it myself.  Then I saw it again very recently but a different operator driving this time and the shunt moves were just too quick, the locomotive would run too quickly and then it would be on with the emergency brake; I just walked away in less than a minute.

 

Completely different feeling about the same model with the same stock but operated like a 1970s train set with just stop and go being the two speeds.

I find that there are really two types of modellers. Those who really "get" operating and those who don't. When a good operator is really "in the zone" and running a layout well, it is a joy to watch.

I see operating as being like many other model railway skills. It is as much a skill to develop and master as soldering, weathering, or painting and lining. You can take the trouble to learn how to really get the best out of the layout you are running or you can just be satisfied that something is running.

It isn't really that difficult but it is all about getting those little pauses right between changes of direction, along with trying to make the loco move as if it is many tons of metal, rather than a toy. 

There comes a time when model railways can diverge from true prototype practice and be better for it. Victoria Park is really too small for a prototype which would have a pilot loco ready to release a train loco. You do get small real terminus stations without a run round. Eyemouth comes to mind. That was shunted using gravity so only the train loco was needed.

I don't see anything wrong with using a bit of modelling license to create a small layout with more operational potential than the prototype equivalent may have had. If you have room for a small layout with only three points and can make it less prototypical but interesting to operate or more prototypical and dull to operate, give me interesting every time.

3 hours ago, John Besley said:

 

Intresting to realise that the model has proberly lived longer than the full-size Blue Peter in active service.... taking into account the years when 60532 was out of traffic... at least yours doesn't seem to have had her valve gear trashed by an over enthusiastic driver resulting in water carry over from what I recollect.

 

On that subject how many model locos are there that have been in regular use longer than their prototypes?

Without checking dates I can't be 100% certain but the locos on Buckingham have been in regular use for up to 77 years and I think they have probably all been in service longer than the real life ones. Even the ones with long lives on the GCR, like the N5s and J11s, lasted around 65 years maximum.

I had the great pleasure of visiting Lime Street at its home base a while ago, with a couple of friends.

I many respects, I got much more out of that visit than I did seeing the layout in that environment than I did seeing it at shows. There is so much superb modelling that I was able to appreciate and enjoy "close up" that you just can't see at normal exhibition viewing distances.

We were there for a few hours and the layout wasn't even fired up and running but it didn't matter. There is just so much to enjoy just looking at it as a static model and chatting about the techniques and methods used to create it.

5 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Hi @t-b-g - can I also ask what you're using to construct the station building... is it printed brick on card or plasticard or similar?

Most of my buildings are from plasticard. In this case, it is embossed brick on a thicker shell. The brickwork is Slater's embossed English Bond, which is correct for many railway companies, including the LD&ECR. I don't know whereabouts in the  world you are but I will be doing a demo on building construction at EXPO EM in May, at Bracknell. I will have the buildings with me and I will be demonstrating my construction methods.

Regards Tony

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I agree with you Tony, but I do know of one group/society where the demonstrators can be so engaged in model making that it deters anyone from interrupting their activity. I even saw a post where one of their demonstrators said they were looking forward to manning the stand at a particular show as they hoped to build a particular loco kit over the weekend.

 

For demonstrators, Society representatives, layout owners/operators and traders there is a careful balance to be struck between being welcoming /helpful or off putting/disinterested. The former can put people off (as well as attracting those who want to tell you their modelling life story), as much as the latter.

I agree entirely Jol and I have seen and heard similar things. The best demonstrators get that balance just right. You need to be able to spot the right person to open up a dialogue with. You also need to be showing methods that encourage people to have a go when they get home, rather than "look how clever I am"  techniques that are so complex you have to be a well practised expert to get them to work. Some of my favourites are simple tips like making a nice tiled roof for a building, or doing the glazing bars on a window. Another is showing people just how quick and easy it can be to file up rails to make a crossing nose or a blade. Such things can make the difference between somebody having a go at making buildings or points or never trying. It is immensely satisfying if you see the same person a while later and they are now confident at carrying out the work. That has happened more than once to me.

I never have any delusions about actually completing much modelling at such a show. The best I do is to come away with a few filed up bits of rail, if I haven't given them away.

I really enjoy doing demos but it took me several years to learn how to do it in a way that I think suits the situation of an exhibition. It is a skill that needs to be developed and honed, like so many others. My next trip out will be at EXPO EM in May, where I will be doing a demo on making buildings.

1 hour ago, john new said:

Many also always seem to have a grandfather who drove or fired (the) Flying Scotsman. They never seem to know whether that was the locomotive or the train. I suspect also even where it is true (the locomotive) it was something like 50 yards up the shed road to say they've done it or some other move around the shed as a just passed out fireman or similar.

 

At the risk of thread drift. I worked on the clerical side in the Police Garage 55 years ago straight out of college as my first job, I did once drive a police car a short distance up the car park to move it as it was in the way - I can legitimately say I drove a police car at work, but a big difference between that small yard shunt and being a traffic cop. 

I have told this tale on RMWeb before but many years ago, I was at a show in Doncaster with a layout. A mum and dad were looking on with a girl, probably around 8 or 9 years of age. The girl piped up with "My grandad drove the Mallard". I said that I knew the names of some of the people who had driven Mallard and if she told me her grandad's name, I might have heard of him. "Joe Duddington" was the answer. So especially around the right parts of the country, I never treated such claims as suspicious again!

As a regular Demo stand volunteer at shows, although I have cut back to just a couple of shows in the last few years, the idea that you should proactively approach everybody walking by is a bit of a non starter. It comes across as a bit desperate and pushy to me. My approach is to be doing "something" practical but to keep an eye out and spot anybody pausing or showing a bit of interest. Then a "Morning/Afternoon. Are you interested in xyz?" is a good opener. Having a few part built and finished models on show, to show the various stages of the work, perhaps with a visual display such as some photos or a laptop with a video draws people in too. Just sitting at a desk with some leaflets may be a nice easy weekend for the people behind the desk but it doesn't add much to the show.

14 hours ago, TT100 Diesels said:

Nice work Red Devil, the BG all ready  looks great. When its in weathered all over rail blue, be spot on.

 

Got some wagon kits yesterday while helping with a packing day at the society shop.

 

 

These took my fancy, Cambrian kits Dogfish ballast hoppers. Ended up with 8 going into the stash, to eventually make a nice little rake up. These were not even on my radar at all, just a massive impulse buy! 

 

What I had planned to get was a Parkside Dundas Conflat kit, which I did. 

 

 

Made it it up today. Its to go with the 08, as a match truck but with added pick ups. I know it was only 03's had these really but the 08 is poor runner so it is a possible solution to pick up issues due in part to it requiring billiard table level track and my not so super level track in places.

 

 

So here we have the added pick ups, 0.3 mm n/s rod soldered to pcb sleeper, and decoder wire used to connect to half a micro connector, the other half hard wired to the 08 pick up pcb.

 

The intention is to paint, add liquid lead underneath etc once proof of concept is proven. Trouble is, tonight, test running was stopped when a driving wheel came loose on the SQ axle end. So its in dock having had the b2b re set and super glue added to the outer interface with the extended axle, in fact I also added super glue to the other 5 as well to head this off at the pass.

 

Also managed to snap off the cab end cosmetic vac pipe and screw shackle when removing the body. More flippin rework to do.

 

So after the 08's moment of fame as the cover pic on this quarters Mixed Traffic magazine, it is now in the naughty corner.

 

Cheers

 

D.

I have a vague recollection of seeing a photo of an 08 with a shunter's truck attached to it at Doncaster. The wagon type was different as it was a former brake van chassis, which still had the concrete blocks on the ends. It is ages since I saw the photo and I can't remember where I saw it but you needn't feel that it is totally wrong to have an 08 with a shunter's wagon/match truck attached.

On 31/03/2024 at 17:03, gingerangles said:

Bit more today. Printing 1:1 plans on A4 is a bit of a pain the the 🍑  🤣

That is looking very promising. You have really captured the layout of the station nicely.

47 minutes ago, queensquare said:

I was told we’re in the vicinity - I thought you were avoiding me! 😊

 

Jerry

As if! You must have been tucked away in a corner somewhere as I went round all the different floors and levels and still missed you. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Tony

Back home from a super day out at the show. Lots of chatting and catching up and some lovely layouts. I managed to miss Trerice completely and remembered that I wanted to look it up when I was half way home. Sorry Jerry!

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Paging @t-b-g.

15 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

It lives!........t-b-g brought it along to a Missenden session in 2019....

19 hours ago, Hroth said:

Amazing!

 

Especially when you think that nowadays, the control system tasks could be performed by a single Arduino Uno and a bank of relays.  May 1971 was 6 months before the first microprocessor (the Intel 4004 of November 1971) was released*.

 

Speaking of electromechanical control systems, does anyone remember the "Automatic Crispin" system used by Peter Denny around the same time?

 

 

* And it would have been too expensive and difficult for the "average enthusiast" to use...  The Uno itself was the first cheap and easy to program microcontroller system, introduced in 2010, so only 14 years ago.  It and the even more flexible 2012 Raspberry Pi SBC have been key players in the democritisation of computer controlled applications in the hobbyist environment.

 

Yes, the Automatic Crispin survives. In a non working condition. It may stay that way or one day I may try to get it up and running. Having operated Buckingham for over 10 years without it, I don't see it as necessary or even desirable but it would perhaps be nice to be able to demonstrate it to people who come to see the layout. It was developed to work the fiddle yard when Peter found himself without other operators and he wasn't keen on sending trains to himself using block bells and instruments. So it became a second "virtual" operator. It ran the fiddle yard, receiving and sending bell codes and setting the correct points in the fiddle yard. This was based on the clock, which drove an acetate roll with the timetable on it, with brass wipers making contacts through holes cut in the acetate.

We find that the timetable has places where trains have to be run at faster than scale speeds to keep up with the clock and other places where there are long gaps between trains. I could put a speed controlled motor in the clock but we find it more relaxing and enjoyable to work the timetable as a sequence, allowing other operators adequate time for all the shunting moves.

The idea of an automated layout with a series of trains following each other around a circuit is my idea of model railway operating hell! I appreciate that some folk are happy to build a layout and just watch trains run round but that would bore me silly. 

10 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Glad I could reciprocate a little!  

 

If that is the case, what is ground signal 41 used for?  I had assumed that was to release traffic from the bay.

 

You are right, 41 is the signal allowing a shunting move from the bay onto the main line. The signal on the bracket would have been for a train departing from the bay, rather than for a shunting move.

A couple of my friends, one in his 50s and another in his early 70s, have both decided that the point motors on their layouts will be mounted along the front edge of the baseboard with a wire in tube going to the point itself. They both decided to ensure ease of access for repairs or replacements at the building stage as insurance for when they are less nimble. Neither layout is easily portable.

55 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

 

Perfect, thanks @t-b-g 👍

 

#13 = Spare then 😁

 

Signal #42 is confusing me also... it seems to have an additional arm coming off it?  I have a pic of it from GCR days... I guess one is the starter signal for the Up Main Platform... any idea what the other is?

 

 

 

That dates back to LDECR times, when the bay was in use and was available for passenger trains. The LH signal was the starter for the bay. The bay was later taken out of use and the signalling altered. You can see the remains of the other doll of the bracket on the signalling diagrams. I can't recall the dates when these changes happened. The signal in the photo is an LDECR bracket, with somersault arms. I have been looking for a decent photo of one of them for a while, so thanks for posting it!

12 hours ago, gingerangles said:

Could someone help me try to understand the operation of 9, 11, 13 & 14 on the signal diagram please? 

I think I've got my head round why there are 2 x 9s and 3 x 11s... although it took me unboxing some points (like I needed an excuse 😂)

 

But how can 13 and 14 be separate on the same slip?

 

 

Am I right in saying that No 9s will only allow a maneuver from the Up main (bottom) to the Down main and not onwards to the double crossover?

Scratch that... of course No 11 on the Down main controls that 🙄 

You would either use 9 to cross over between the main lines or 9 and 11 to cross from the main line into the sidings. 13 and 14 are interesting. In real life, slips didn't necessarily have all 4 blades connected and moving together. On this slip, 11 moves all 4 blades at one end and 13 and 14 move a single pair of blades each at the other end. This gets tricky on a model especially using a ready to lay commercial product. Unless you are insisting on representing the prototype with 100% accuracy, I would suggest ignoring the fact that the real thing had independently working blades and just use one lever rather than two.

I usually lay one stock rail, the straight one, or the straightest one on a curved turnout. Then I lay the V with a gauge to the stock rail. Then I lay the second stock rail with a gauge at the V and another where the blades end. Having tried lots of different approaches building many hundreds of points, it is the way I find easiest and most convenient.

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

Ultimately, you need to create a list of pros and cons, that you need/want.

 

I think AJ's are very discrete, but I wouldn't use them because they don't have

the delayed uncoupling feature. I've used Linc's, which are also quite discrete,

but again, don't have the delayed uncoupling.

I don't like using Kadee's on British goods stock, it just looks wrong!

Also I'm not keen on all the types that are different each end, which means all

the stock has to face the same way, and more issues with using a turntable!

I'll admit my preference is for S&W, as the best compromise (for me) between

ease of fitting, flexibility in use, and looks.

I agree about the delicacy of AJ couplings and I wouldn't use them in 00 as there is just too much slop in the wheel and track standards for the couplings to line up with the required degree of accuracy but it isn't right yo say that they don't have a delayed uncoupling function. They do. The couplings drop on an electromagnet and come up "wrong side" so you can push and leave vehicles where you want.

My preference is for a home made fine wire S&W. Unobtrusive, reliable and easy to make. The locos just have a bar across. It isn't universal in that my wagons are single ended for added reliability and turning them on a turntable fiddle yard or reverse loop can make things tricky but in the right situation on the right layout, they are as near 100% effective as I have seen. There is no delayed uncoupling, although that could be added by soldering an extra wire on top to prevent the hook re-engaging. I just haven't found the extra work worthwhile.

On 22/03/2024 at 22:24, gingerangles said:

Loving that, looks great.  It was the appearance of the track that made me ask about scale.  It really does look good.  I've got my finger hovering over the button on a cart full of the peco bullhead wondering if it's worth the expense.

 

Love the signal box, I'll be needing something very similar 😂... is that the colour the thing would have been for its entire life span or is that a GCR thing?

Thanks for the kind words. The colour scheme for the box is the LDECR colour scheme. Although my layout is set just after the GCR takeover, they haven't got around to repainting the buildings yet. I may yet get the urge to backdate the layout to before 1907, so I have my bases covered. The signals are LDECR pattern somersault types too. The GCR replaced those with lower quadrant ones but I don't know when. If you look at the signalboxes on the preserved GCR at Loughborough, you will see the two most common GCR colour scemes. There us a rather garish but very distinctive ( to my eyes anyway!) two tone green livery or a brown and cream. My recollection is that they were originally brown and cream, changed to the green around 1910 and possibly back to brown and cream after a few years. I have seen details and dates somewhere but can't remember where.

I will also post a shot of the pointwork. It shows the improved appearance of EM quite well.

1 minute ago, gingerangles said:

Thanks @t-b-g that's been immensely helpful.  No, I'd missed that that was a single slip!

 

EM eh... very nice - assume you are building all your own stock and locos then?  What area / era are you modelling?

My layout is a fictional terminus based on the Sheffield District Railway. In real life, they had a goods station at Attercliffe in Sheffield and they had started to build a passenger station nearby when they obtained running powers into Sheffield Midland. In return, the Midland was given running powers onto the LDECR. My period is just after 1907, when the GCR took over the LDECR, allowing me GCR, LDECR and MR liveries. The idea is that the passenger station was built before the running powers were agreed and lack of capacity at Sheffield Midland led to both companies using my station instead of Sheffield Midland. I am mainly a GCR/LDECR fan but I recently acquired a quantity of lovely MR stock, so the joint running became attractive. The MR used to run to Edwinstowe using their running powers, which ended there, hence the terminating trains. Pretty much everything is kit or scratchbuilt.

The only building finished so far is the signal box, based on features from several LDECR boxes. I attach snaps of one of my MR trains plus the signal box.

2 minutes ago, gingerangles said:

Right... taking a closer look at the Western end... I think I may also have '34' & '36' wrong as well...  I had put this in as a simple cross over but I think it may actually be a single slip to allow a route from the down either onto the up or into the 'Dock' sidings and doesn't allow passage from the up line into the dock?

That end had a single slip too. I didn't mention it as it looked as though you had drawn it as a slip at that end. Edwinstowe is a good example of railway practice from that period of avoiding facing points whenever possible. The extra signalling and need for facing point locks plus the fact that they were regarded as less than ideal by the railway inspectors of the day meant that they were not used unless unavoidable by most companies.