hiffano

I was down the pub earlier tonight with a few modelling friends and after a few bevies, the topic of starting a crowd funding project regarding doing a high end Class 91 and Mk IV stock as the Hornby version now really should be relegated to their “Railroad” section of models.

 

Apart from the difficulties in a getting the prototypes scanned, CAD models developed and a host of other difficulties including finding a reliable and reputable factory, what would the start up costs etc expected to be?

 

I realise that it might be the the beer talking and just wishful thinking but how realistic is it in doing

The biggest issue i found, was finding a company who would even talk to you. 

Hornby and Bachmann will probably ignore you

Dapol and Rapido were too busy

Heljan want to charge a sum equivalent to a small countries annual budget

only two companies had time/willingness to quote for me. 

Then there are people, I can't begin to tell you how much abuse I received. Never really understood why, and I hope MIke and Ben didn't receive as much. Also EVERYONE knows better than you, everyone..... you can have all your costings, prices, model lineups. but no, someone will know better.... :-)

Argh, its no good, one King is not enough. I want a green one and a blue one so in order to fund them I have started listing my possessions on eBay.

 

I hope you are satisfied Dave.

Surely someone will buy your kidney?

I quite possibly missed your point as the interest seems to be 50/50 N/OO version,  but having looked seriously at manufacture of coaching stock some time ago, there is quite a difference in producing the same item in 2 different scales. Much as I would like another set of quad arts I would be surprised if they were a realistic production option unless done as a short run of resin castings.

 

I shall step away from this as I am unlikely to order and I'll only be seen as negative when asking questions.Not at all

Not at all, as i said, after Digesting it properly I was fine, I do understand your concerns. Stick around, you could be useful :-)

Chris, you are the little voice on my Shoulder, that nagging doubt. and I suspect you will keep me on my toes. 

sometimes i think we all need that :-)

I'm not going to go through all the further points right now, otherwise we will be too and frowing all night. 

re the finish and articulation on the coaches. The coach quote came late in the day after some advice to look at producing these. I've barely had time to consider this product, hence why I have not listed a spec or cost.  rather i have let people know that there is work in progress to produce these. 

a number of your other points are valid to a greater or lesser degree, as you have said, you don't know me, and just because some things haven't been explicitly stated, does not mean they are not done or understood. 

the difference between the King and these, is the king has reached a go live, and has a CAM that can be used from another project (the OO version for hattons), so can move quicker. no Guarantees that it will happen of course, but i'm having a shirtbutton one.

Hi Chris, thank you for the comments. I did read them first off in a negative light, but re reading, i'm not so grumpy now, always pays to have a ponder.

so, I do have some drawings that have been provided to the factory via an "established" UK designer/producer of British outline models. as things are still at the "dirty end" I've not named them, but will do in due course. the drawings at this stage are not owned by us, hence why the factory have seen them, and you haven't. it's not a ner ner ner i can see them and you can't  thing, purely down to copyright issues, and they are drawings that a model can be developed from, in conjunction with 3D scans. The drawings as it stands would not show you a great deal about the model. 

6 months, wow, it really IS that long. I've spent a good 5 months of that waiting for information, approval and agreements for various things. I'm surprised, and a little frustrated at how slowly things can move, indeed one thing that needed bottoming out in a January meeting was delayed until July, so on that i'm going to take a leap of faith. I have never provided a timescale as I am aware how awkward that can be, just look at Dapols 142! and the Farish Class 40. And they are financed by established big players. 

So, financial aspects and wishful thinking.... you betcha i'm wishful thiking, but if no one ever dd that, would anyone ever make anything?, I don't have the cash to throw at the model, that's why It will be crowd funded. Step one once the niggly stuff is sorted is to get an expression of interest from as many people as possible IF enough people show interest, we take a deposit, and start on the model development. IF we don't get enough interest, then much like the Revolution class twenty something (ok complete mindblank moment here) then it won't happen.

how many to make. 

well this is where the expressions of interest come in, and here I have worked backwards. I have looked at some comparable models when looking at the N2 in N gauge, gone for a competitive price, and worked backward to establish a minimum run needed to cover costs, and vat, packaging, postage and so on. as part of the process, if for instance the expression of interest came up short, we could conceivably give people the opportunity to pay more and go ahead, or call it a day and move on. It's worth noting that the Pendolino did NOT meet the minimum expressions of interest, but Rapido bumped up the number themselves.

regarding not knowing me, fair enough, I personally don't know Ben or Mike, but they are proposing models I want, and I will take a gamble on that. and if you are ever in Manchester, happy to meet for a pint.  I hope once the full details are out, then people will consider that with the N2 and Quadarts. Why this model? well, why not. It was conceived as an N Gauge only model, but if we do a 3d scan, why not bring up to date the offering for OO. Without going out there and asking every N gauge and OO modeler, or doing "representative" sample's of the market, you can never be 100%, but then neither are Dapol, Farish or Revoution for that matter, and i'm sure any number of OO models have tanked over the years. 

questions re teak finish and articulation, may be a bit ahead of me right now, i'll get that inf in due course.

At the end of he day Chris, we can all sit back and wait ten years for an established company to finally produce a model we want, or we can make some inquiries, work out the money and see how many people want to jump on board. You may be right and it will come to nothing, but at least i'll have a go. I'm not even hugely bothered about profit, it will be about saying "i made that" (ok i project managed that with some very experienced help... but that's not so catchy)

thanks 

The pricing has been done and the OO's will be offered out, if they don't meet targets for interest they can be dropped. The Hornby model to my knowledge is still the old Airfix tooling. I'm sure some have been detailed by their owners, but not everyone is capable of that. We will soon find out what is and isn't viable. 

I like your thinking though guys. The Quadarts "should"certainly be the biggest sellers, they however also have the highest cost to cover for the tooling. 

Likewise, I will definitely be getting one (just need to choose which one) although quite what it will be doing trundling down a branchline in rural Somerset I am not quite sure yet.

shakedown following a refurb. simples

Actually "Great Western" on the tender was replaced in 1934 by the Shirtbutton emblem. As the top-link express locos of the, the Kings received the new branding pretty quickly so if you are modelling 1936, you will probably want:

 

DJM-LS-N-001A 6006 King George I GWR Lined green with GWR 'Shirtbutton' logo on the tender

Hey Buddy, long time since i saw you post, thanks for that, I probably meant earlier (brain not working), but thats grand, works for me, ta muchly

Brilliant, quick question for GWR buffs. I'm modeling circa 1936 (just started) which is GREAT WESTERN on tenders, which of the two GWR liveries on offer is the most likely to overlap with this (i lost my quick reference sheet of liveries!)

Also, rather impressive timescales if they can be kept too! 

ok all, it's taken some time getting new pricing, the £, Brexit, Chinese new year etc. 

We now have tooling and manufacturing costs for an N gauge N2....

and now we  also have costs for an OO gauge N2, and Quadarts in both scales. 

Once i have digested the figures, messed my head up working out VAT, claiming back VAT, net present value on tooling costs and other financial type stuff. I will finally be able to start taking expressions of interest. 

So, today, some pretty cool Line drawings of the N2 have been sent to the manufacturers for a more definitive Tooling and production Quote. I'm hoping to be able to do the same with the Quadarts once I can obtain the drawings. 
There is a meeting towards the end of this month to ratify the agreement to access the Locomotive for scans, and get some technical overview to make sure the detail is as good as it can be. I know I know, people want to officially note interest, order, give money etc, but until I am 100% it is nailed on, that is on hold!. We are 99% of the way there though.

I'd definitely want one in Great Western Livery Dave... but i'd really like a J94 first ;-)

Hi Everyone. Just a wee update. I'd been awaiting a reply from the owners of the N2 locomotive regarding access for a 3D scan. The organisation has a meeting coming up, after which hopefully we will have the go ahead. This would be the point at which we can go all out to start raising awareness, and taking expressions of interest, and deposits. 
We could have pushed ahead using images and drawings, but we want the best for you guys, and a scan will improve the accuracy of the model. We are that little bit closer to being able to do this.

Hey all, sorry it's been quiet, i've been rather patiently awaiting some quite importantinformation which is relevant to the project, but has so far not been forthcoming. Rest assured I have now set a  deadline and will update accordingly. 

All-wheel drive is surely not relevant for a steam locomotive where the wheels are connected anyway by the coupling rods; I'd suggest you might want to rethink this (there seem to have been some issues with the DJM J94 in this respect).

hey Guys, thanks for the thoughts, much appreciated :-)

Hi there Hiffano,

 

Mike and I were discussing this the other day while packing and sending out TEA tankers.

 

We know there are some customers who really want liveries that habven't yet reached the threshold, so we want to give them as long as possible to make the cut.

 

Our plan is to whittle down the field in stages. When we show CADs in the next few weeks we will also eliminate a couple of the options that are clearly way too far short of reaching the required number.

 

Some customers might walk away, but most say they'll simply switch to other choices, and in doing so may bring them closer to the target.

 

When we get to the plastic EP sample stage we think we will be able to make the final choice, as by that time it should be clear which models are close and which are "no cigar."

 

If you are in for a 92 or 2 then please keep an eye on our website - in response to customer feedback we are implementing an instalment system for that project so with a bit of luck you can get both your 321 and 92(s)!

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Cheers Ben, both liveries I would  want are on the "maybe" list lol

and I've already seen the installments on the 92 news which is great. I've been Paying Collets installments for pre orders and its fantastic to ease the burden on the wallet/grief from the missus ;-)

HI Guys, any update on the "secondary" liveries, ie; if any are even close to being made. I've got money tied up in delayed Dapol and Farish models, so i'd rather save my 321 cash for 92's if the liveries i want are unlikely :-)

cheers

Great news, and the staggered payment method, godsend!!

If I may, a quick update on what TEAs we still have available:

     VTG - Red (Triple)         lots of these

     VTG - Blue (Single), VTG Enviromessage (Triple) and Greenergy (Triple)            a few of each of these

     VTG - Red (Single)        1 left available.

 

For all the others, we have sold our allocation. But if Revolution have any excess stock left after all orders have been satisfied, they have agreed to let us have further supplies. Obviously, as yet, we do not know what we might get.

 

Our delivery should arrive in the next few days, and we will despatch as soon as we are able.

 

Mike Parsons

C&M Models, Carlisle

do you guys not take paypal? i nearly purchased some wagons earlier, but stopped s i could find my chequebook :-)

Hi hiffano,

 

I am sorry you missed out on the tankers... But we still haven't called time on the KFA, OO TEA, 320/321 or Pendolino orders...

 

Oh, now we have actually delivered something in N there is also our new project that is being announced (by us, for once!) within days...

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Don't worry Ben, I'm awaiting birthday money then will speculatively order a Yorkshire Metro 321, and the "new project" if i N gauge will also be ordered.  

If anyone is suffering "non-buyer's regret" - C&M Models of Carlisle or Colletts of Exmouth may still have some for order, but I don't know what is sold out (or not).

 

Cheers, Mike

they seem to have some, but at a very inconvenient financial time for toy buying ;-)

so so gutted i didn't order any of these :-(

Who is it to be commissioned from please? Direct from a Chinese factory or via one of the established UK based designer-producers?

 

Potential crowdfunders need confidence in the team behind a product before they commit any cash.

 

The fact that you only have a Facebook presence and not a commercial website hardly inspires confidence to be honest.

Website will be coming, and all the info will be there for everyone to see. And it will be via a known company. 

This was really an early heads up for people, and I can field a few questions, and take some suggestions on board. Everything has to start somewhere. 

Hi hiffano

 

There are a couple of potentially interesting/useful threads over on the NGF that you might find helpful and where you might want to promote this project.

 

Our experience is that people like to know who they are dealing with (ie who is behind the crowdfunding and who will be manufacturing products).

 

Hope that helps,

 

Mike

Hi Mike, thank you for your comments, and I will go and have a good read of the relevant threads. This is very early days and there are a few very minor things I want to bottom out before sharing more info. 

I've found it quite interesting to date who is quick to offer advice, and who is a lot more cagey :-) 

Ultimately i'd like to think we are all in this together, but events over the weekend might prove otherwise!

many thanks 

Steve

Lovely choice of loco. Just needs a quad-art or two to go with it!

 

I'm guessing "all wheel drive" only applies to the driven wheels on the prototype - unless of course you're planning on making the rear pony axle powered too?

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

HI Steven, Quadarts have been discussed, if this works then could be next up!. and yes, you are correct, i could have worded it better re the wheels.