Semi Fast

I am a 'returnee'.  Because I built many, many Airfix kits as a child, I feel comfortable building plastic kits now and hope it leads to other 'proper' modelling skills later.  I would dearly love to see the Coopercraft and Slaters 4mm ranges available again - or a new range covering similar prototypes.  I think it would be difficult to justify as a business,  but it seems there would be enough interest to thoroughly explore the options around some sort of cooperative/not for profit venture.  It doesn't have to be a threat to the Bill Bedford-type market - I certainly wouldn't practice my skills on that type of kit; I'd only tackle that quality once I knew what I was doing!

 

The optimists on this thread have my support.  Nothing new got started by people not trying.

There will never be an answer to where a variation like 4-sf sits - but does it really matter?

 

To those who don't/won't use it, it isn't "00" because of the nominal gauge.

 

Those who do use it will see it as 00 because they will be using 00 stock without modification.

 

Compared to the number of users of RTR track work, the numbers of modellers involved are few.

Oh no we are not. The manufacture and sale of Marmite is in clear contravention of the Geneva Convention.

 

I thought that the manufacture and sale of Marmite was allowed - it's the consumption of Marmite that threatens world peace.

 

Andrew

Consumer of Marmite in industrial quantities

As far as I can tell, every time there is a discussion on RMWeb about TDG (The Devil's Gauge a.k.a 00-sf or 4-sf or ...) - which may include technical arguments but is generally interesting and/or useful - then sooner or later somebody jumps in and declares it "a Bad Thing". And despite the fact that nobody seems to be recommending 00-sf, merely presenting it as an alternative, apparently those talking about it are "promoting" it. Why are some people so frightened by it?

Currently, an Chilean Merlot, which the wife chose (because it was "a bargain"). Not bad, but favourite at the moment is Yellow Tail Malbec - also Australian. Sublime. But after watching today's rugby, I may have to boycott Aussie wine. Scotland would be my least favoured of the home sides, but they were the last hope. Dodgy decision in the last minute?

Semi Fast

 

What a spoil sport you are, just think of the hours of pleasure you have given some, best of all the exact opposite of what the two dissenters want, which is loads of publicity for 00sf.

 

I remember one financial organisation being absolutely slated in a TV program. only to be advertising a few weeks later "as seen on XYZ program" All publicity ends up being good publicity When did you last see a thread about another 00 gauge set of standards recently?

Well, I'd had a rubbish day and a couple (or more) glasses of wine when I read the latest missive from the double-oh police. I've ignored the ranting as much as possible, read and understood the genuine debate - and you know what? I want to try building my own track to 00-SF/4-SF/EM -2/The Devil's Gauge. I Don't want to try and make anyone else use it, I don't want to "campaign" on it's behalf, I have no intention of making absolute statements about how good (or bad) it is. What I would like is to engage in a constructive manner with others who have already (or intend) to use it.

 

Too much to ask?

As the OP, I think I now finally have the answer. I'm giving up. I will be using Hornby set track.

 

On the off-chance that I change my mind, I shan't be telling a soul about it or daring to ask for advice.

The King is Dead; Long Live the King!

 

I am so relieved that my 00-SF switches and crossings will no longer upset some folks; they can now call them 4-SF and not be afraid of them sneaking up on and eating their grandchildren.

Disingenuous is the word which springs to mind. Despite being half cut in our caravan awning in the middle of a showground in Warwickshire (because our Welsh Springer just won third in Gundog group). More to life than model trains, etc.

 

DOGA is a scale  society for all OO modellers , not for a particular small subset of them . Defining more than one standard is a natural response to that situation , and I for one am glad they went down that root

Excellent! Sounds like DOGA will be including 00-SF in it's selection of standards in the future (now that there is an acknowledged user base and clear enthusiasm for the convention).

I think I'm on a different RMWeb to Ravenser. I certainly don't recognise what he's describing - perception is about the point of view, I suppose. Perhaps I should start another thread - "why should I choose DOGA Intermediate?". Just for control purposes.

I have a life. I am considerably under 67 (expected retirement age as of the moment). I spend time modelling. I am not promoting 00-SF or anything else. I am sick to death of good discussions- arguments, even - being spoilt by those who can't see beyond their own preconceptions. Unfortunately, the forum software won't let me delete the thread. Perhaps that should be fortunately, as it would make me as bad

Thank-you EVERYBODY for the interesting and constructive posts - even the off topic ones! (Good humoured dig, please note

Thanks everybody for the constructive contributions  .

 

Junctionmad, I think you've better described what I was trying to say.  I get it in my head, but I'm not sufficiently experienced to clearly express it on the page; partly why I started this thread.

 

I find it quite interesting that however often 00 modellers emphasise that 00-SF is only really effective for British/4mm/00 requirements, it seems there are H0 guys looking at it as well.  What's the attraction?

DavidKnigh:

 

Good question! If I'd not had a 35 year break from the hobby, I probably would be into EM or P4. I have decided to accept the compromise and go to good looking 00 as my main interest is steam and I just can't try and learn too much too quickly.

David_H:

 

Thank-you for your considered response.  Could you summarise which wheelset/wheel standards you had problems with (and how those problems manifested themselves)?  Now you have reminded me, I do remember this being in a thread on here but I can't find it just now.  Could you post a link?

 

I do rather like the last paragraph of your post above.  I've no objection to enthusiasm for a thing, but vilification annoys me intensely.

Junctionmad:

 

I'd forgotten that DOGA-Fine gave the narrower flangeway, so cosmetically it gives the same result (strike point 8 from the list).  However, the significance of point 3 (should have numbered them!) to me is that the gauge-narrowing of 00-SF gives a smoother operation than DOGA-Fine - at least as I understand Martin and others explanations.  In terms of making a choice, I don't suppose the origins make much difference.

 

Arthur:

 

Indeed - despite what some seem to think, "pushing" 00-SF has no purpose being on anybody's agenda.

After deciding that I wanted to build my own turnouts to use with SMP/C&L plain track, I spent a considerable amount of time perusing RMWeb and other sources researching the topic.  Like many others, I concluded that “00-SF” ticked the right boxes and so I am now collecting the appropriate tools, gauges, etc. to make a start this winter.  Part of the preparation has been to follow the related discussions on RMWeb, hoping to pick up tips and information prior to starting.

Unfortunately, most 00-SF discussions tend to descend into a more general debate regarding its fitness (or otherwise) for purpose.  This makes it rather difficult to pick out the useful content to either add to one’s knowledge or inform an opinion on it’s suitability for an individual.  I suspect that some folks choose not to contribute to these threads for fear of being branded ‘pro’ or ‘anti’.

So, to help anybody in a similar position to where I was a couple of years ago I have attempted to summarise the salient points of 00-SF.  Please note that while I will attempt to be as objective as possible, I have already decided to use 00-SF myself.

 

• 00-SF is for 4mm/1 foot, UK outline, standard gauge modellers.  It has no relevance to H0 or any other scales and gauges.
• 00-SF is a label.  It is not an “official” standard.  Another way of describing it would be “EM-2” (i.e. EM gauge minus 2mm).
• By accident rather than design, 00-SF enables most modern 00 wheelsets to perform smoothly and reliably.  While some ‘tweaking’ of back-to-backs may be required, it’s probably no more than would be required to get good running with other track standards (i.e. manufacturing issues, interpretation of parameters).
• 00-SF is only applicable to hand-built turnouts (and diamonds).  There is no relevance to RTR.
• 00-SF is an option for those who have already decided to hand-build – there are more significant reasons for choosing hand-built over RTR other than 00-SF’s particular dimensions.
• Adopters of 00-SF generally apply the gauge-narrowing to 16.2mm only to switches and crossings; all other trackwork uses the standard 16.5mm.
• There are a number of people who have built and operated 00-SF and have then shared their experiences on RMWeb and elsewhere.  I have only been able to discover positive feedback from these individuals.  As far as I am aware, nobody has tried 00-SF and subsequently found it unsuitable for modern 00 RTR or typical kit wheels.
• To most people, the narrower flangeways delivered by 00-SF are a noticeable improvement over those resulting from the traditional standards.
• Some people claim that 00-SF is flawed and will lead to imperfect running of unmodified 00 wheelsets.
• Some people point out that 00-SF is not a standard recognised by any international or national body and so raises risks of non-interoperability for those wishing to share stock.

I would be interested to hear other people’s views on 00-SF – in particular, why they think I should or shouldn’t adopt it.

 

Andrew

I've visited this tread maybe 30-40 times.  For amusement.  And because I can't quite make my mind up whether it's an elaborate hoax or just plain bonkers.  Either way, it's quite fun.

Having spent several hours reading the threads at freerails.com (thanks for the link, davetheroad), it answered my question re: international cooperation - Brits, Yanks, Germans all contributing there!  It would also seem that DelTang is working collaboratively (and speedily) with model rail customers towards a common set of requirements, and solutions.

 

All of which has led me to taking the plunge!  Yesterday I ordered an 'ALBA' kit from Smallbrook with the appropriate donor loco for conversion to BP/RC.  Unfortunately, despite being the far side of 50, these will have to go to Santa to be delivered on Christmas Day...  Best to humour the other half, I suppose.

 

By the time I get to unwrap these goodies, I will have put together a test track and gathered together all the tools and bits I've been buying for the last couple of years and so will be ready to begin the conversion, which I will cover in a separate thread.

 

In email conversation with Michael from Smallbrook I learned that he is a fan of BP/RC having built and run a 1/32 ng battery powered layout some years ago.  He pointed out that the Smokey Joe chassis used by many of his kits usually have a 3v motor with extra resistors to operate on 12v, so potentially good candidates for battery operation.  He thinks there may be an option to offer a hollow boiler for some kits to create battery space.

 

Andrew

Semi Fast

Hi all,

 

I have read this thread with fascination!  I am part of the 'returning after 30+ years' brigade and am building my first 'proper' layout, which for various reasons will be 00 and DCC - although in the interests of economy and experimentation it will utilise RPI and Sprog 2.

 

BUT...  What I really want to model is 7mm Narrow Gauge - 0n16.5.  My worry was running 0-4-0's and maintaining continuous pick-up.  And justifying a second workstream to The General Manageress.  But building a NG layout using battery/radio control sounds like it could be done on a reasonable budget AND result in smooth operation.

 

For what it's worth, I agree with many of you guys on here - this technology is the future.  Is anybody trying to define standards yet?  Is there any international cooperation?