etendam

3 hours ago, icn said:

That truly is surprising. EU countries, or at least Germany, will simply perform the normal import process for any goods that are missing the IOSS paperwork, meaning receiver pays taxes and duties and a processing free (and there are quite a few UK sellers who continue to send to the EU without IOSS). Then again the UK solution is quite pragmatic, the taxes collected likely exceed the implementation costs for lower valued parcels.

  

I'm somewhat confused - selling to/from Europe includes non-EU countries (Norway, Switzerland, Ukraine, etc.) too.

 

Private sellers are apparently excluded from these new rules anyhow:

https://www.ihk.de/stade/innovation-umwelt-energie/umweltschutz/verpackungsverordnung-vollstaendigkeitserklaerung/online-shops-und-ebay-haendler-3991432

 

I have to agree it looks like a complete nightmare for small businesses though. Fortunately there seem to be some companies offering to do the registration work for you (e.g Lizenzero), but it certainly adds to the costs.

As a business we should collect the UK VAT on orders below £135 and pay it to HMRC but if we want to use DPD as a carrier then we must also pay the UK VAT to DPD. So then we have to pay twice...? So it is much easier to work with dealers. 

All other buyers from NON EU-countries paid before the Brexit en Ebay sales the VAT twice and the company didn't have to hand the VAT over to the TAX authority as it was an Export sale. This is why I didn't understand why those buyers didn't opt more for direct purchases as then they had a VAT discount. Since the Brexit Ebay solved this for all NON EU countries.

You must register for the Verpackungsgesetz & make use of a company like Lizenzero. Payment will be done by Lizenzero.

Some smaller businesses are now swapping to pirvate sellers on Ebay but the commisions are different and if you sell to often or a few times the same items then you will be seen by Ebay as a business seller. Business sellers must also take care of the WEEE if the sell model trains, electronics and track. Therefor it will be easier to work with dealers as well. German dealers must of course register for the WEEE then. The CE will follow.

The EU is working hard to have all imports getting back to the dealers/resellers within the EU again.

Ed

From July 1st all selling platforms in Germany have to check whether business sellers are registered for the German Verpackungsgesetz. Businesses selling to Germany must register and pay yearly for the amount of packaging they sent to Germany. Ebay/Amazon and other selling platforms will remove the ads from business sellers from July 1st who aren't registered.  More EU countries will adapt this system in the future. (They look how the system will work in Germany)

Manufacturers who don't make use of dealers in EU countries will also face that Model train items (Trains, Decoders & Track parts) must also register for the WEEE (recyling of electronic equipment/components) in many EU countries. For instance: Direct sellers to German end users must appoint a German representative who is responsible for the recycling. In the Netherlands they can register themselves. If the manufacturer isn't registered then the dealer who sells the items to these country must be registered. When you make use of dealers than the dealers must be registered in many countries. Each country has it own rules regarding the WEEE !

These new rules will make it very difficult for box shifters and Manufacturers to do business with certain EU countries especially if the sales in a certain country is very low. lt is the responsibility for manufacturers & sellers to keep yourself updated about these regulations for each country in an EU market with constant changing rules for each member state. So after the Brexit some new hurdles arrived. Another thing that will change in the near future is the CE marking.

Ed

23 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Without wanting to get "political" and working in the shipping and Customs industry I can quite categorically say the amount of companies I've seen either relocate to EU countries or simply go out of business is staggering. As for the amount of extra "red tape" and cost this has saddled the remaining companies with......

 

 

Last week there was an article in a Dutch newspaper saying that in 2021 400 UK companies setup a business in the Netherlands (either office or just a warehouse) and that this created 11000 new FT jobs.

Ed

On 08/02/2022 at 17:37, LimboBrit said:

That's where the problem lies. eBay does not make a distinction between VAT registered vendors and private seller. 

Not only Ebay does this but that is to any sale from outside the EU (unless the business seller uses IOSS for the VAT) otherwise every business seller starts selling as a private seller with second hands items only.. ..

This to protect the internal market.

Ed

On 21/01/2022 at 16:02, TTDB said:

I had to pay VAT and a £7 duty on my Liliputt HO 614 total with post was £190 I’m looking into getting the £7 duty back, everything else I have recently purchased has been below the  £135 so no duty was paid but I’ve some NME wagons and with post are a tad over £138 so will see if this attracts attention 

The £7 duty must be the carrier fee and no duty.

Ed

On 15/01/2022 at 14:50, Jol Wilkinson said:

What happens if a business is not VAT registered.

Then you should NOT be on Ebay as a business seller. 

As said VAT registration depends on VAT taxable turnover in the UK and above the set level of £85k you are required to register BUT you can always choose to be VAT registered. If you want to sell on Marketplaces (Ebay, Amazon and the rest) imported stuff, you can't get your paid VAT back and they will deduct the VAT on Payments. When you start a business and have to invest a lot in your stock/machinery you get more capital free to invest as you get the VAT back.  If your company grows and you are selling above the £85k you must register for the VAT but then you can't get the VAT back on the investments you once made. If your sales are above the treshold your earnings are then also about 17% (100/120*100%) less then before and then the questions rise if you can still make a profit. Your stock is also de-valuated if you are above the £85k with 17%.

I have seen growing UK companies in the past that reached the £85k and then raised the prices with 20% and then lost a lot of their buyers as the competition had better prices. In the EU the register requirements are MUCH less to avoid this. (In the Netherlands € 20K).

So you should always think twice if you start a growing business.

Ed 

3 hours ago, SimonBoulton said:

 Just completed the CN22 form like before Brexit with no HS codes or anything and was delivered with no problems. 

A CN22 form is used for shipments below € 50. The insurance in case the parcel is lost can never be more than € 50. When items are shipped above the € 50 you use the CN23 form. On these forms it is mandatory that the correct HS codes are used.

In case of eileen example...solder tin can't be classified as modeltrains of toys. This awakens the customs at inspection as soldering tin should not be in toys! According to CE you now have a problem and you have only 4 weeks to come with the correct paperwork + CE before the shipment is scrapped.

Usally the mayority of shipment will pass the customs without investigation but that goes well until one shipment is checked and than your shipments are on the radar of the customs.

Ed

1 hour ago, SimonBoulton said:

 

Jack, was the item under £135 or above? I recently purchased a loco from Germany via eBay. eBay added the VAT and it arrived without any additional charges but I noticed that there didn't appear to be anything on the parcel to say the VAT had been paid 

Normally you will have the Ebay VAT number on the parcel but with some carriers you can also do it electronically. If a seller forgets to mention it (some don't even know that they should mention it !) then it is possible that you get an invoice later and you have to reclaim the double VAT at the UK customs.

Ed

On 06/09/2021 at 13:13, brushman47544 said:

Portugal has decided to stop everything arriving from outside the EU instead of stopping them randomly as it did before the new EU rules in July, so I gather has around ten times more packages to process with the same number of staff. The process is easy as its all done on-line but the delay with Customs is currently weeks...

France did the same for Toys (and books) as of the new CE regulations from July. If you want to ship items from outside the EU that are classified as Toys (depending on the HS numbers) you will notice that these aren't allowed anymore. To me it looks like several EU countries are protecting the internal market and use an appropriate reason.

Ed

Just got a notification from Paypal that they will add an additional transaction fee on all PayPal transactions between the UK and EU (or EU and UK) of 1.29 % from Sept 7th. Looks like they want to earn more from the Brexit.

Ed

On 26/08/2021 at 14:24, maico said:

 

I don't understand why the publisher would get confused, there is no VAT on printed matter in the UK. They must also be shipping to countries outside the EU.

There is no VAT on printed matter ONLY applies to the UK. In most EU countries there is VAT on printed matter. In the Netherlands it is 9% and on the shipping 21% VAT if not shipped with PostNL, Germany 7% and on the shipping it is 19% VAT. 

In order to have second VAT administration in the UK my bookkeeper charges € 200 quarterly and an accountant will charge at least double....so it is for most companies not cost effective to supply B2C just because of the additional administration costs. 

This is the ONLY reason why so many EU companies don't request for a UK VAT number and prefer that items are supplied by a retailer. Then you DON'T need an UK VAT number.

If no dealers want to supply these magazines or distribute models directly you are either depending on a EU retailer or a local reseller. And yes without going into the price discussion again there will be additional costs.

I am very pleased that a UK dealer started distributing our motors and upgrade kits just for the administration costs as all UK orders where handled through Ebay now.

So will Märklin and many others get a UK VAT number.......Not very likely!

Mine took just 2 days (But I wont use it!), so they could already have one for months now.

Ed

On 05/08/2021 at 14:32, Derek Russan said:

If you trade on a major platfrom such as Amazon or Ebay thay provide mechanisms for dealing with it. If not then it causes issues.

 

Anythig over 150Euro has to go with tax unpaid. Currently all imports to the EU below 150 Euro can either have taken prepaid by the sended (using the IOSS system) or not prepaid where the recieving country usually apply tax and the carrier will charge a service charge. I have seen some cases where they have not bothered. Gone is the old 20Euro no tax threshold.

 

Larger suppliers can register direct for IOSS, but smaller ones are not able to do that. For starters you need to do it within the EU.

Selling platforms like Amazon and Ebay don't collect VAT on orders above € 150. If you receive a large order the buyer has to pay the VAT + Post or Courier charges at their door in order to receive the package.

On 05/08/2021 at 14:32, Derek Russan said:

Also this system is for business to customer sales, so if you are VAT registered you cannot reclaim the VAT if IOSS is used.

The IOSS is only for B2C sales. For B2B sales you always make an invoice without VAT (Export at 0% ) BUT this can only be done if the Business his VAT number is in VIES. If NOT you have to charge the VAT ! All the bookkeeping / invoice programs that are available have automatic options for this. They check the number in VIES automatically and state the correct VAT amount on the invoice. You also need this when using IOSS, otherwise you need to know all VAT percentages for each EU country for every product group.

As the seller is responsible for the correct VAT it is highly recommended that if you want to do business with the EU that you invest in good software.

Sellers that don't use IOSS will have less (and sometimes very frustrated!) customers when they have to pay the Post or Courier charges at their door. With IOSS the costs are € 0. So IOSS will boost your sales but it is very hard for starters and small companies to invest a lot upfront even without sales. The days that you start an international business, and trade with the EU, without money are gone but you always have the possibility to work with a EU partner / Agent and he will handle all EU sales. With the new CE regulations you will need this as well.

Ed

7 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

I have just calculated what it cost if I buy a  Hornby Merchant Navy loco from an well known shop at an 10% discounted price of 162,- pound UK VAT free including shipping  of 15,- pound to the Netherlands , with Dutch VAT of 21% over total price including shipping and handling fee, it would cost 230,- euro total.

But directly ordering from Hornby RRP of 179,99 pound and free shipping over 150,- pound to the Netherlands, it will cost at the exchange rate 

of 1,20 euro a pound 216,- euro, maybe Hornby handling even an lower exchange rate , so that's  14,- euro cheaper than buying from an regular shop with all extra cost.

And faster delivering , Hornby is shipping with DPD, about 4 days that takes , and with all extra handling at customs etc. it take's a lot longer from other shops trough customs.

My shipping from Rails from 23 June is still at customs.

So this is very interesting for me and many others living in the EU. 

Don't forget the handling fee that the carrier will charge you when ordering from your well known shop. Hornby will ship from an EU warehouse?? as they mentioned there will be no surprise charges or fees upon delivery!  

Ed

23 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Not true, at least in the case of DHL. Pre-Brexit, they did indeed deliver their own parcels in the UK. Whilst they are still present in the UK, without exception every parcel I've received post-Brexit that was despatched by DHL (from Germany) was delivered by Parcelforce.

 

So being present in the country doesn't mean they'll deliver the parcel.

This is because you have DHL (or DHL Parcel) AND DHL Express. DHL express is a worldwide shipper that is present in almost every country, more expensive and deliver within a few days around the world. They deliver their own parcels. Our motors from China are usually supplied within 3 or 4 days. (They don't make a difference in the weekend!)

DHL parcel is a European service that also works together with other shippers as in your example and is more affordable. The Same as DPD / SEUR they always pick the most cost effective solution.

We just had several DPD - SEUR shipments and one is still out for delivery and 2 have been delivered.

Ed

On 04/07/2021 at 08:14, Enterprisingwestern said:

AVOID SEUR AT ALL COSTS.

 

Mike.

The issue however is that you can't choose who your shipper uses as a partner for the local delivery. If you use DHL, UPS or Fedex or similar then you are sure that they will also deliver the parcel as they are in almost every country available. The costs for some countries however are 2 or 3 times higher than the rates when using DPD or the regular Postal service. With Postal services we had some difficulties in the past as they use company A this time and next week company B to deliver the shipment. Can I choose a favorite .........ehhhh No.

Can't you claim the insurance for your lost shipment or is that to early?

Ed

13 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Whilst they may seem over the top, @etendam has experience selling across continents/countries etc, and so I'm sure he is speaking from a degree of experience.

As I have stated before, I am not 100% confident that the couriers will handle these deliveries correctly, even though the paperwork side may well be perfect, once they decide to go down a route, it's one hell of a job to divert them, or return them to the correct application, once they've got your goods/money then they have the upper hand.

 

Mike.

It is exactly what mike described, Parts are exempted from CE Markings AND the customs will not check every delivery as well. So in 9 out of 10 cases the missing CE markings and the details of the authorized representative will not be an issue.....unless the correct paperwork needs to be uploaded. The same situation will happen on EU - UK shipments in the future when the UKCA mark becomes mandatory. Carriers will have to changes their policies (and check if the correct paperwork has been uploaded) for the customs as they work on behalf of the customs when it comes to importing items.

As expected this year we will have the first frustrating posts about the customs or carriers that will hold shipments. I see this already what is going wrong with the VAT on several posts. This just frustrates buyers and a non happy buyer will not continue shopping from that supplier if things are going wrong a few times.

The rules on Amazon (very strict when listing a item in a toy category) or eBay (less strict) will prevent us from listing items on other selling places or ship items to other countries.

My wife's company has more than 3000 parcel shipments a year, so we are also affected now and then by changing regulations we have to deal with. To keep updated about changes we are informed by the bookkeeper / financial advisor and make use of an advisor that works at the EU. What I notice is that some companies are poorly advised. If you have to get the news from a forum you are always to late to take the correct actions.

A good adviser costs a lot money but in the long term you win as you are a few steps ahead of the competition. (I see that Hornby is also making use of advisers as they are also usually the first one that act to changes in a changing market)

Ed

2 hours ago, LimboBrit said:

Yesterday I took delivery of a new Hornby Class 31 from Kernow

I needed to shift a Hornby pre-order from Hattons to Kernow which is still pending. 

Why not order Hornby direct from their site? They have an EU warehouse they can ship from (I don't know if the UK model range are there). Then you don't need to pay the VAT & service fee of PostNL and soon you don't have issues with the CE.

Ed

4 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

Maybe this CE rules has more to do with direct import from Asian countries.  

This has nothing to do with import from Asian countries! The CE markings applies to ALL imports in the EU. If you import items from the US, UK or Asia and they don't meet the new CE marking regulations the customs are entitled to prevent the shipment from entering the EU. If your shipment is hold at the customs it isn't the responsibility of the seller anymore, it is yours (They also don't have to refund you, as you bought items outside the EU market! You must know what you can import and what not, it is similar to forbidden items that may not enter a country.

France has already set Toys on the list of forbidden items for import! (So even with the correct CE marking)

https://crossborder.fedex.com/us/assets/prohibited-restricted/france/index.shtml

Ed

Amazon offers the possibility for sellers that use their platform to act as a legal representative:

https://aluragroup.com/eu-market-surveillance-regulation-2019-1020-will-your-products-be-blocked-from-entry-into-the-eu/ 

https://cemarking.net/amazon-responsible-person-ce-marked-products/

Of course you must do the CE marking yourself, but this helps if you don't want to use an importer or open an office in the EU.

The downside is that you can only sell through Amazon. The last months Amazon removed all Ads where CE is required and items where not in compliance.

There are several messages on forums where non-EU sellers where they told that Amazon removed more than 700 Ads until they have the CE markings sorted out. As they are just resellers and some manufacturers are not willing to help they can't sell their stock anymore in the EU just locally. Not everybody is happy with the new regulations but they were announced 2 years ago... so you should have time to make arrangements or do the right investments as a business seller. 

Ed

Secondhand items that are more than xxx years old (sorry I haven't got the exact number of years on my head) are exempted from CE Marking. The question is however how you want to ship them if you need to upload the CE paperwork upon shipping? This is the same question as for model train parts. They are also exempted but if you can't ship them it isn't going to help much.

You can always ship an item with another HS code (Not Toys starting with 95...) but if the customs opens the package they will hold the shipment until the paperwork arrives. 

There is no difference if items are shipped privately or as a business for the CE Marking. The regulations are the same!

Otherwise all businesses will only ship privately.

Ed

For those who are importing  model trains from the EU in the UK:

https://www.tuv.com/content-media-files/master-content/rs/Attachments/2198_TUV_Rheinland_UKCA_toy.pdf

The new CE Marking regulations that the EU is setting from July the 16th are almost similar to the regulations in the UK with the UKCA. On Jan 1st 2023 the UK based importer names and addresses must be available on the products! So from this date it will be as difficult for any manufacturer in the EU to market products in the UK. Perhaps the only difference is that the UK market is smaller and manufacturers can decide not to export to the UK anymore.

Ed

11 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I await with interest, not to mention bated breath, for an EU domiciled company to start manufacturing etched brass kits of obscure diesel shunters in 4mm scale suitable for building to EM or P4 gauges.

Politicians, don't start me off!

 

Mike.

Mike,

UK kit manufacturers have possibilities to market their products in the EU.....

- Share the design with a company in the EU and get pad for the design work or for each item that is sold. The EU partner have the items etched in the EU and sell them. Model railway parts that are made & sold in the EU are exempted from CE Markings!

- Sell the etch plates and perhaps whitemetal castings as raw materials (do NOT ship them under HS code 95 !)  to an EU partner. He packs the items, add the instructions and send them to buyers. No CE marking is needed as they are sold as model railway parts!

Due to the Brexit agreement most raw materials will not hit with tariffs. Perhaps only the items that are made in a third country. (Country of origin)

UK Modeltrain manufacturers can do the same as long as the parts (Non assembled wagons, locomotives etc) are shipped in large bags (or a box) but not individually packed, without instructions and shipped as raw materials or parts for production. When the EU partner assembles them to a ready to run item, they can do a self certification for the CE. (They need to learn and perhaps pay how to do this only once and then repeat the process for every item)

So we are back at working with another wholesaler, partner or a production facility in the EU, what I think is the best solution for  lot's of non EU manufacturers to be in compliance.

Ed

13 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

 

While this will certainly apply to RTR model trains, I think you are overstating the problem with regard to the more specialised items like kits, detailing items and models that are expressly not intended for children.

 

With reference to the

Council Directive 88/378/EEC of 3 May 1988 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States concerning the safety of toys

it states under ANNEX I:

"PRODUCTS NOT REGARDED AS TOYS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DIRECTIVE 

(Article 1 (1)) 

1. Christmas decorations

2. Detailed scale models for adult collectors

3. etc."

 

As I think has already been mentioned here, a supplier only has to print "Not for children under 14 years of age", or words to that effect, and the problem is solved.

 

David

David,

That is correct but see my post from last Friday and the first post on page 23:

The Royal Mails's general notes on the matter say....., 

"Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories thereof

The importation of toys is subject to an indication on the toy or its packaging of:

– the name, corporate name or brand and the Community address of the manufacturer, its representative or the importer;

– the CE symbol. 

The importer must have, for the disposal of the Customs, a production file containing information on the means used to determine that the toys comply with safety requirements".

The general note above applies to all items starting with the HS code 95........and this includes items that are FREE of CE markings. Model railway parts are exempt from CE markings within the EU as well. Shipping companies do not want to take a risk that a shipment may not enter the EU and for them it is the easiest that all items should follow the general rules.

Maybe convince them and customs that there are a few exceptions and then the problem is solved? 

Ed

4 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

Back in the early days of my railway modelling, when everything was still in black and white, my prized 'wishing book' was a W&H Catalogue of the 1970's. W&H were a model railway wholesaler and their catalogue was full of odd bits and pieces and kits from small manufacturers. I think they closed down in the 1990's though.

 

Is now the time for the reappearance of such a business, who could navigate the ins and outs of exporting to Europe, and supply the produce of our cottage industries? Peco is also expanding in a similar sort of direction, with various well known names of some of the larger, small suppliers now appearing under their banner.

 

Maybe all is not lost, but may emerge in a different guise?

 

I think this is also my guess for the future for small companies to continue exporting to the EU. Wholesalers can setup a business in the UK and in the EU. If they also do the CE markings and appoint their own EU hub as the Authorized Representative within the EU there is a win-win.

Small companies will of course share a part of their profit but for wholesalers it will be very easy: it is export to the EU or NOT. Of course you can also wait until 2023 until the UKCA are perhaps aligned with the EU CE. Hornby and Bachmann are doing the same.

And that the prices for customers in the EU will rise with a minimum of 50 % that is also obvious. (Just take the VAT, handling charges and profit for the wholesaler)

As mentioned by me before the EU says the CE is about Toy / Electrical / Product safety but indirectly they protect the internal market as the costs of imports will rise quickly and this offers chances for businesses in the EU to jump into gaps.

Ed

31 minutes ago, Grizz said:

We did this once in the US. I went  to a 'train store' and my US friend bought a couple of Walthers  AMTRAK FP40s. I then paid for dinner for our families. He gave me the locos as gifts, at which point they were not new but second hand. This meant that when I returned to the UK I had no issues with customs as the second hand value was around $10 each...

The gift option (up to € 45 value) is still possible but that is totally not the issue. Any gift with a value above that will just be added with VAT and perhaps (depending on what it is) duties. The issue is CE Marking ! There is no difference if you purchase an item or a gift if it comes to the CE marking. If there is no CE mark on the box AND a Name / Address details of the Authorized Representative within the EU on the package, the customs will not let the modeltrains come into the EU as it is classified as NOT a safe toy. 

So model trains are exempt from import duties, but without the CE marking they are no longer allowed to enter the EU.......That is the issue. The options mentioned by sending it to friends or one which had no easily attributable monetary value doesn't release you from the CE markings.

Ed