johnarcher

An apparently defunct question risen from the dead!

Actually I  thought the 4 wheelers might have lasted into the early 30s, as on the Golden Valley.

Do you know what variety of non corridor composite, and I wonder would the brake van have been the main Kington one (an AA13 road van IIRC at some point, but I don't remember it's dates offhand)?

Piece of music - Bach flute sonata in B minor BWV 1030

                              (Period instruments only please)

Song  - Dowland "I saw my lady weep"

              Campion  "Western Wind"

              Dylan. Desolation Row, Visions of Johanna?

              Leonard Cohen . The Traitor, Anthem??

              Kinks    Sunny Afternoon.

              Almost any aria from Bach Cantatas where voice and flute (or oboe) duet.

Album.  Haydn. String Quartets Op. 33.

Might pick differently tomorrow though.

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Quite possible, but I went to a grammar school, populated by the offspring of nice, aspirational, lower middle class, people who couldn't afford private education, upper middle class wannabees, with all of the inculcated values and petty snobbery that suggests.  We thought we were posh.

 

As Mr Griffiths the headmaster once told me; 'you'll never get anywhere with that attitude, boy', and he was quite right, I never did...

I went to a Grammar School too. As my hair got longer in the late 60s the head told me "you'll  end up playing the banjo on a Cornish beach" (banjo????).

About ten years later I lived quite near a Cornish beach (Porthtowan) and played the lute (badly). So he wasn't that far off.

Hair was still long though, so there. (Where did it go?)

12 hours ago, johnarcher said:

I must admit the more I look at this the less I feel that I understand the pipework on any of these three enough to make a model. In the Hecate picture above there is a small pipe coming from the middle of the cab front and down, and seems to cross to the near tank top  between whistle and dome. This seems the likeliest candidate for vacuum exhaust.

Also what I think is exhaust from the Westinghouse pump goes up on to the same tank top.

At the front end I think there is a pipe running to the smokebox just above the handrail. Presumably this the other end of one of those two, but which?

 

Further to this, would it be technically possible for the two exhausts to join on the tank top and run in a single, common pipe to the smokebox?

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Are you suggesting that the Westinghouse brake was banned at some time?

Because of the special nature of the GER commuter services from Liverpool Street station, the LNER Quint-Art sets provided post-grouping continued the use of the air brake, which wasn’t discontinued until the mass withdrawal of that stock around 1960, presumably around the time of the electrification of those services. 
I seem to recall reading about an interesting problem in the 1950’s when the Southern Region had to handle some Quint-Art stock which was going to the Farnborough Air Show, and had to search around for suitable ex-LBSCR locos that had retained the Westinghouse brake to handle the trains involved.

Sorry, I misinterpreted his comment, it obviously just meant that a locomotive with air brake only could not work passenger stock on a vacuum braked line, just unfitted freight. Thanks for your clarification.

PS, just as a matter of interest, Flying Pig mentioned passenger trains, if a minor line (not vacuum using S&M) had stuck with air brake (as I believe the LBSC did) is there a date after which they couldn't use that for passenger work? 

(I think the Bishops Castle used even ancient chain brake until about 1923.)

PS, just as a matter of interest, Flying Pig mentioned passenger trains, if a minor line (not vacuum using S&M) had stuck with air brake (as I believe the LBSC did) is there a date after which they couldn't use that for passenger work? 

I think the Bishops Castle used ancient chain brake until about 1923.

I must admit the more I look at this the less I feel that I understand the pipework on any of these three enough to make a model. In the Hecate picture above there is a small pipe coming from the middle of the cab front and down, and seems to cross to the near tank top  between whistle and dome. This seems the likeliest candidate for vacuum exhaust.

Also what I think is exhaust from the Westinghouse pump goes up on to the same tank top.

At the front end I think there is a pipe running to the smokebox just above the handrail. Presumably this the other end of one of those two, but which?

8 hours ago, bécasse said:

None of the three S&M Terriers would have been fitted with vacuum gear by the Brighton, it might have been fitted during their brief period in Government service (at two different Scottish locations) but I doubt it, which means that in all probability it was fitted when they were acquired by the S&M. It might be worth seeing what was done on other similar locos around the Stephen's empire - Terriers on other lines and even the three Welsh Highland locos vacuum fitted in 1923/4.

According to Johnson's history of the line all three were fitted with vacuum brake, though the pumps were not removed. There aren't many photos but Dido seems to be the only one with the obvious exhaust from the ejector.

On 01/11/2022 at 18:58, IWCR said:

The loco itself was air braked even when vaccum equiupment was fitted for  the train brake.  Some  were converted  to  steam  brake  and  the  pump  removed.  The  pipes on  the  front  of  Hecate  do  look  like Vaccum.  BR  era  terriers  had  a  large  Vaccum  ejector  in  the  front  L/H  corner  of  the  cab with  the  exhaust  being  run  along  the  tank  top  to  the  smokebox.  This  pipe   is  not  visible  in  the  Hecate  photo  but  there  is  a  small  pipe  to / from  something  in  the  middle  front  of  the  cab,  this  could  relate  to  a  small  ejector.

 

Pete

I see what you mean about the small pipe, if it is an ejector where might it run to? I can't see any sign of it getting to the smokebox. 

40 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think you need to research the locos a bit more.  If Dido was the only one with vacuum brakes, was she the only one able to pull pasenger trains? Does that matter to you?  Here's a picture of Hecate showing she was fitted with air brake equipment (Westinghouse pump on the cabside) at least earlier in her S&MR career.  Was that used or just a leftover from her previous career, like the condensing pipes?

 

Shropshire and Montgomery Railway no 7 HECATE at Kinnerley September 29th 1923 by Charlie Verrall, on Flickr

I have read, but can't search for where just now, that those two kept the pumps even after they were used. Looking at that picture before I thought  I saw a vacuum pipe on the front buffer beam. Though the question of passenger use wouldn't be crucial.

13 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think the red handle controls the driver's brake valve, used to apply and release the brake.  At a guess, the two brass nuts on the left indicate the two ejector cones and the brass handle next to them is the main steam cock; steam comes in at the top and the connection to the train pipe is at the bottom. I don't know what the other pipes do.  Here's a period description of the system I found on the Web:

 

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r143.html

Thanks again for your help, I'll study the article, and then must decide whether to go for this pipe ( on Dido), or the condensing pipes (on Hecate or Daphne).

6 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The image here shows a possible arrangement inside the cab (btw I just searched "Stroudley terrier cab").  If these were retrofitted systems, they might well be different in detail for a specific loco.

Thanks again. Actually I had seen that picture, I guess the whole red-handled control the other side of the window (spectacle?) operates the exhaust, and a pipe runs up to that from somewhere below?

Yes, Becasse, having also GW interests I am reminded of the variety of the 517 class. Unfortunately the Shropshire and Montgomery three vary, though all A1, and there's only a couple of often poor photos of each, so one must try and fill in details from elsewhere.

I'm a bit late to comment, but you have Shropshire and Montgomery under A1X, surely all three of theirs were A1?

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Other way round I think.

 

The job of the ejector is to eject air from the brake system to create a vacuum.  It's a clever device which uses a jet of steam to do that without moving parts and the mixture of steam and air then has to be exhausted, usually up the chimney.  Ejectors are sometimes fixed on the smokebox side with a control rod from the cab (see for example Midland engines) but are often near or within the cab with an exhaust pipe to the smokebox, as apparently in this case.

Of course, thank you, I feel a bit silly now. I have found some more pictures giving some idea of its course and fixing, but not so clear about what happens to it inside the cab. Presumably it would rise from the braking system?

26 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I suspect that you are referring to the vacuum ejector exhaust pipe. It wasn't fitted as built but was a retrofit, so details varied from loco to loco.

Thanks for the answer, you don't know of any helpful pictures for its route and fixings?

Actually would an exhaust run through the cab front into the cab?

Not being a Terrier expert (I just want to produce one of the S&M three) I don't have the relevant books,so maybe some kind specialist can help.

Two of those three (all A1) have the condensing pipes from front of tanks to smokebox, the other has a pipe one side from high on the smokebox, between handrail and chimney, back along the boiler and angles up into the outer edge of the cab front, level with the window.

What is this, what happens to it in the cab, how is it fixed along the boiler? I have searched online but can't find a good picture of the back end of this pipe.

Has anyone built one of the above kits? I want an Ilfracombe (to be S&M Hesperus), I could get the Branchlines kit, but some don't seem so keen on that anyway and I prefer brass to whitemetal if possible.

So is this a truly dire kit, or one of Jidenco's better efforts? They do vary I think. If it's the latter I'll keep watching eBay for one, I missed one a few months ago.

I've been thinking of a new iron to go with my old 25w Antex, but I'd want two things from it that may not come together (or not at an affordable price)

First, temperature controlled, but going low enough for whitemetal soldering, those above don't seem to go below 200 degrees

But also something like 60w, for when joining something chunkier than etches.

Any ideas?

On 22/10/2022 at 13:52, johnarcher said:

I have just bought an Albion Terrier kit on ebay,which arrived today.

The parts seem find, etches still wrapped, but the instructions refer to a diagram, or diagrams, for the body construction and the only diagram that came with it is for the chassis. Does anyone have a set of these instructions lying around who could kindly scan me the missing bits?

As  you were, I have acquired the missing pages.

1 hour ago, Barclay said:

Yes I read that but all he's really saying is 'be careful' and encouraging the reader to go DCC, which in my case is never going to happen ! 

 

With the Pentroller and a cheap PWM motor controller off the internet, which has an adjustable frequency, I should find something suitable, but I will avoid my Compspeed and Gaugemaster HH which both have quite 'fierce' feedback. I note that some of the larger Compspeeds have switchable feedback, but my simple single knob version doesn't, unless there is something round the back that can be adjusted.

Yes, switchable like my Compspeed F which started all this, but I still don't know if feedback off means straight DC or still something that a coreless may not like.

maybe there was an answer to that in one of the more technical posts which sailed well over my head.

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I don’t know what the fuss is about, skim reading admittedly.

 

I have no great, or almost any knowledge of how real railway regulations stipulate operation but I love fine detailing even down to trying to get a moustache even on a station master (and that’s getting almost impossible nowadays for me) but I still have no signals on my layout, everything else is about finished but does it bother me? No…..why should it, I love modelling not running trains to strict prototype standards, TBH I think that would be incredibly boring in as much as there would be massive gaps between operation and movements. 
 

When I went to shows it was the detail and some truly amazing feats of modelling prowess that impressed, not how well the chap driving did.

 

All just IMO of course.

I feel much the same, for me the main point of modelling is making things so I'd probably spend a lot longer looking at a finely modelled static scene than something less well done but with movement.

Certainly I've spent a lot more time at Pendon looking at cottages and landscape than at moving trains. Just personal taste.

4 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

With the very short bursts of power any model loco will run would overheating be a problem, especially on a shunting plank or BLT. It may be a problem on a big roundy roundy with continuous running for long periods. Why worry?

 

No idea. Certainly my Terrier (when I eventually build the thing) will just be creeping around a small light railway cameo sort of set up so I doubt it. Some of the posts, I fear, exceed my electronics comprehension, so I'll get on and build her, and try it with the Compspeed F with feedback off (when it may or may not be pulsing), and with the lower feedback setting, and see.

If I'm not happy with that will maybe try a simple modern non-feedback controller. Does anyone have any opinion about the Gaugemaster Combi in that role if it comes to that.

Thanks to all who have contributed to the question.

I have just bought an Albion Terrier kit on ebay,which arrived today.

The parts seem find, etches still wrapped, but the instructions refer to a diagram, or diagrams, for the body construction and the only diagram that came with it is for the chassis. Does anyone have a set of these instructions lying around who could kindly scan me the missing bits?

12 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

No, it's a very good question. My educated (or not so educated 😀) guess is it outputs pulses 100 times per second. The pulses start when the rectified AC is close to zero volts and the control knob widens them as it is turned towards max output. When feedback is turned on it further adjusts the width of the pulses based on the motor's back-emf but in both cases it is supplying pulses to the motor.

 

I think the reason Bodmin operates with FB off is simply because it does not work well with coreless motors due to their very small inertia (flywheel effect). My guess is it would actually work if the motors had flywheels (or very low friction drive-trains - no worm gears).

Sorry, maybe it's because it's late or maybe I'm just dense regarding this subject, but you seem to be saying that there are pulses whether feedback is on or off (just varied according to back emf if it's on). In that case though why do the Bodmin Compspeeds work better with the Portescaps with feedback off, if it's still outputting pulses anyway?