ruggedpeak

A valid point, Greater Anglia were using Mk3 push pull sets with 90 haulage until the new Stadler units took over in 2020. For some reason in my head I don't equate a Mk3 door as slam door like a 312, but you had to open the window and lean out to get the door open, and slam it shut so the guard didn't have walk down the train to close it! I guess the amount of people in recent history who used those services and were familiar with them probably only had a limited overlap in the Venn diagram of the wider population who visit heritage railways?

Some internet research may help give an indication of the extent of the issue. In Kernow's Bargain section they have 118 different SKU of Hornby OO coaches alone - that is just individual product lines, quantities vary from 1 to "more than 10" aka shedload! The overall total number of Hornby 'bargain' SKU's at Kernow is 285. However put a guesstimate of the average quantity of each SKU and an average value of each item and you don't don't actually get much total value - a rounding error on the £20m accounts figure (say av. quantity 8 per SKU and £30 per item = 8 * 285 * 30 =£68,400). Even if a quarter of the £20m is OO gauge trains (£5m) then the total number of retailers carrying large quantities of these items will struggle to get to a £1m. This is comparable to Bachmann who have 256 SKU's in the Kernow bargain section. Obviously quantities and values will vary so actual value of stock in the bargain bin would require a lot more work (or someone with some good coding skills to scrape the data). But we can conclude 1) it is not just a Hornby issue and perhaps calls into the traditional blue and red business model for trains 2) even with a number of retailers carrying or having access to significant amounts of the surplus stock, it may not even be touching the sides of the problem.

I think you just returned to the hobby 2 or 3 years too early! In a couple of years it should be very different. Personally as a piece of high risk NPD i think they have done an excellent job with TT and would guess sell through etc is probably noticeably better than OO. As they say, overnight success takes about 10 years!

Except that traditional physical retail (i.e. actual shops) requires stock sitting on shelves otherwise people won't come to the shop.

That beautifully sums up the current dysfunctional nature of the UK outline model railway market, except for missing out the extensive duplication of a limited range of items whilst many others that have never been modelled remain unproduced. Hornby and Bachmann should perhaps, if their business model remains limited batch production, focus some more effort on those prototypes that the newcomers will not attempt as they seek to cash in the high volume pre-order items (noting that not all new entrants are heavily into the duplication business).

I was commuting on slam door bouncy seat non-CDL 312's on the Southminster branch in the very late 1990's. According to Wikipedia "The last slam-door stock was withdrawn by South Eastern Trains in December 2005" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam-door_train http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/southern_counties/4163768.stm

I do have a half decent prototype thread in the Swiss Railways section, which includes some comparisons with the UK. Seems to be appreciated by those interested in the contemporary Swiss scene.

Total figment of your imagination and very bizarre given at various times on this thread i have been accused of spreading hate against WCRC and being part of an anti-WCRC mob! When you have calmed down read my post again. Nowhere have I criticised ORR or made any comment that remotely implicates that. I am genuinely interested in comparisons and offered it simply on that basis, as the way the Swiss society does things is very interesting (to me at least) compared to the UK. If it's not of interest to you just ignore it

So this will be the last Swiss reference but there are a lot of similarities between the Jacobite and the Bernina Express and similar services. Both run premium trains on world famous railway lines in stunning scenery. Both attract tourists from across the globe and both bring valuable business to the areas. The key difference is that whilst the Bernina operates with new, high quality rolling stock and service, the Jacobite operates crappy old coaches whilst making large profits for its owners. Aside from the embarrassing and shameful conduct of WCRC over safety, it would be nice to think that the UK had enough decent, competent people who are able to organise a drinking session in a brewery to collectively create a similarly world class experience with fully refurbished and compliant Mark 1s for the full Harry Potter experience. Just a thought.

Not sure what are you responding to? I don't think anyone suggested anything to do with what you have posted above. I certainly haven't suggested Swiss law should affect UK law. I merely made the observation, in relation to discussions around the application of railway safety rules and discussion around mollycoddling etc here in that Switzerland we have CDL but you can stick your head and body out of the windows, despite clear hazards, whereas in the UK this is not allowed. Nothing more than a potentially pertinent observation and/or comparison of how different but similar systems operate. I'm not sure showing a photo of an asian train with people on the roof and hanging off the sides is relevant as their laws and society are very different to western Europe.

I agree, and Hornby are still dominated by supplying and supporting retail, somethign that I'd argue some of the new entrants are taking advantage of. The feast and famine approach of some of the new entrants would make it impossible for retailers to remain in business if Hornby and Bachmann disappeared. They sell via pre-order, presumably the majority directly and a limited proportion to retailer, again much of the retail stock is pre-ordered. We know the problems that causes both the manufacturer and retailer processing the volumes, and whilst is brings in sales it does not bring in normal retail customers. If Hornby and Bachmann decided to replicate the arguably parasitic pre-order approach of some of the new entrants, many retailers would close. There would be no point maintaining the overheads of a shop if all you do is periodically pick and pack a large quantity of pre-orders. You can do that from a large garage behind your house. So Hornby are a little caught, and as usual get a bashing over direct sales when their competition do it as well (without the bashing.....), and it is the competition who piggyback the full spectrum retail offer Hornby and Bachmann provide. But as others have pointed out above, retail is still the mainstay of Hornby's overall business and where there new sales drive is focused.

Right now they need to be much better at selling stuff, all their stuff. And that is hard nose selling and deal making like the recent Michael's deal. They have consistently made stuff they couldn't sell, but their penetration into retail was pretty weak IMHO and the online direct sales has not exactly been a spectacular success. They are too small to do it themselves efficiently but may be stuck with the legacy decisions on this for a while. With a huge debt pile and thus at cashflow risk from the interest payments, especially if interest rates rise or just don't fall, they need money through the door so Mr D's job is to flog everything and anything to anyone whilst making some money and expand the sales channels and volumes. Mr K spent too much time on product development, marketing and promotion, but neglected the core sales function IMHO as that is where his interest lies. No amount of discussions about fireboxes is going to change the fact the expanded sales team need to knocking on doors day in day out. Firebox or no firebox, a good sales person will get stuff sold. I worked in sales and was rubbish at it (!) but I've worked with people who can sell anything to anyone. Whilst Hornby could do a better job of selecting and developing products etc they still have to sell whatever they make and that is the key right now. Whether Hornby look to depart from their current processes for manufacturing or sales to replicate the new entrants we shall see, the 500 or 1000 batch system may not be suitable any more. But I am also curious about the business models of some of the new entrants as I can see potential problems down the road for one or two of them as their business models are not foolproof.

I think it somewhat unfair to criticise people for not being able to open a door that has a handle system outside the normal types of handles and buttons used on transport systems is 'mollycoddling'. The world of slam doors was a world of heavier and comparatively poor engineering for things that people interacted with. Modern design and materials, cost, safety etc means doors and other systems are entirely different. Imagine being an alien arriving from Mars and wandering through normal society with automatic shop doors, button operated train doors etc. Then present them with a slam door with a brass handle on the outside that requires you to open and then lean out of the window, place a firm grip on the handle and twist it, using a lot of force to an inconsistent and unknown degree and that young children and elderly will struggle with, to open a door that opens outwards and has specifically been designed to assist you falling out of it having put your body weight against it and your centre of gravity the wrong side of the door. Or worse the small slider catches on the inside that often required two hands to push across. Slam doors were of their time but from any contemporary safety, ergonomic, operational perspective they are a ridiculous design that fails on every count. It is unfair to criticise people for not knowing how to operate things outside of their experience (back to the myth of common sense......🙄). And that is the'human factors' element that is so important in relation to safety and specifically CDL. The question was asked above about why it is relevant to CDL that people were trying to open doors incorrectly. The relevance is that the clear real world evidence of problems operating doors means at the human factors people don't know how to use the doors safely and effectively. Whilst the observed actions are operating things other than the correct handles, this does mean that other people at other times may misuse or incorrectly operate handles at other times not realising their error, leading to a "reasonably foreseeable" outcome that someone may operate a door handle whilst the train is moving because they don't realise the full implications of what they are doing. There is clear evidence of misuse or incorrect operation by passengers as well as fatalities, and without CDL someone opening a door on the move is within reasonable bounds of possibility and there is data to prove it. Accusing a victim of being 'mollycoddled' or whatever because they couldn't operate what is a badly designed piece of legacy quipment (by modern standards) is victim blaming and a de factor admission of guilt to safety offences. If someone states the that they think people are so mollycoddled they can't operate old doors then they have prior knowledge that something could go badly wrong and failed to act. Good luck with that in court!

Vegetation isn't much of an issue in the areas where the windows are fully opening, very tight tunnels and infrastructure clearances are however Pop your head in for the tunnel, pop it out again afterwards and smack it on the bridge....tight curves and limited visibility for significant portions of the route.

They should come to Switzerland, here you can open the entire coach window halfway down and fall out to your heart's content!