Mister Rusty

Ah!

Victoria, eh?

Jub 45565

Many thanks for the leads.

Further legwork for my digits

If a journey is easy, it is not worth starting.

At least, that is what I teĺ myself when I catch up with my 2 projects, these tankers and a full-blown home-built hsdt, avoiding all the pitfalls in both.

Pete

If you want a red stripe on your buffet car, Humbrol do a nice shade of red.

Precision Paints too.

It takes less time to correct than reading all this topic.

Be grateful for what is there, it may not be there for ever..........

Yes, I would like a model to be perfect and it is not unreasonable to expect very high standards, but come on, these errors are not beyond simple rectification, if they annoy to that extent.

My rake for the HSDT has to be created by modification of production items,try researching that little lot for total accuracy. Mods went on throughout the trials to the power cars and some of the coaches.

I had 2 of the first 4 window food wagons, job 1 was to remove the lighting and cut half the sides out to create the correct window size / spacings.

There is more chunter about the stripe than the fact that Hornby have ( or have had ) the correct tooling for both standard class and first class interiors, not just 2+1 or 2+2 either, but different spacings. It seems that any old seats are bunged in willy-nilly.

Is this why the windows are so close to opaque?

This should be easy to remedy, but has not, to my knowledge, been corrected.

So sad.

Thanks Mike,

I think l need to put together a set of drawings for all the various etches that l need, no one seems to list a suitable 4mm diamond mesh walkway, or ladder for this application.

Or does anyone know differently? After all, it is used universally on vehicles and structures.

Well, will we?

As Rick asked:-

Will we get 12 for the price of 11?

Talk about off-topic (iirc)

Andy,

You have my sympathy.

Keep up the

good work.

Will they resolve the seating issues? Very dark or opaque windows are not the answer.

Since there is now a managerial alliance between Hornby and Oxford, there could be an interesting opportunity to suit many modellers.

How about Oxford continue with their mark3s of all types, and Hornby retire their moulds, modifying them to produce the prototypes?

Who owns the Jouef mark3 tooling? Their roof is near perfect for this project and minor tool reworking would make it fit the ex-Lima shell.

The Jouef tooling also could be refreshed, getting rid of the paint guidelines and adjust the doors.

Just some odd (very) thoughts

Pete

A superb post, Phil

Back in the 50s and 60s, our understanding of fly shunting was that the wagons after being uncoupled were pushed to gain momentum, then the loco slowed, enabling the cut of wagons to roll on their merry way, a shunter(man, not engine), may run alongside to slow a further decoupled cut to enable a point change in between.This would be done by dropping the brake lever out of its travel position and then push this down to increase braking.

In a couple of chapters,Gerry Fiennes'book ' I tried to run a railway' is beautifully descriptive of yard shunting and some of its characters in his life, well worth a read for any serious modeller, many a chuckle therein.

It is feasible in 4mm,we can do it in the yard on Buchshee.

Certain things need modifying to magnetic action, and instant loco deceleration is necessary to enable the wagon's inertia to continue its movement.

Buch McInroy, the layout's instigator does it with his Kadee equipped stock, mind he has had a few years experience. Myself, I am creating a few wagons with'Kirby'staple modified couplings on one end and just a loop at the other.

The most successful technique so far is to 'fly' the looped wagon, leaving the hooked wagon attached to the loco. But timing is all, but when it works, so satisfying

Then, how does the fly wagon decelerate, considering its deliberately increased weight? Surprisingly easy. A row of Chinese nymidium magnets in between the sleepers make a grab at the steel axles of the wagon as it passes.

It is a case of much experimentation, but it is possible.

PS -no chance with 3-link couplers.

I have considered a model hump yard, hence the retardersbeing developed.

Blooper

Previous post read as

Now Oxford are tied in with OXFORD

Should have read

Now Oxford are tied in with Hornby

The tooling slide image that was published showed multiple options of roofing, equipment bays, window arrangements to produce all options to that date, with the exception of class 252 (Thanks Royal Oak, good way to describe them).

The 252 set window units were mounted from the inside, thus no external frame, also doors were different. 3 roof vents each end, perpetuated into production, but seemed to be changed/ deleted randomly at build or overhaul.

The best way to create a 252 vehicle seems to be to use Jouef coaches and smooth the sides which leaves a fine lip around the aperture, placing the glazing appropriately near flush on re-assembly. This also gets rid of the paint guidelines, and the remnants on the door can be used to create the handle pocket.

I am modelling to the 3 foot viewing rule, not the slide rule.

Mind, I do work to half-mil on any mods. (Masochist? Moi? No, I model railways, just suffer anoraxia )

Thanks for the clarification.

My understanding had been that the coaches were sanctioned before the hsdt locos were.

This caused me to assume that they were built to spec, and the locos designed to suit, but l can equally see that it would have been possible to create them as an homogenous set for test purposes. It was having the stock in prototype production that, in my view led to the short time from go-design to go-test.

It must be the best decision ever made by BR, surely?

Do people think that at long last Hornby will make a descent reproduction of the mark 3 after Oxford have shown the way. I fear, once again though that they'll just do a quick 'that'll do' job which would be a real shame as the class 87s look fantastic.

The following is not pointed at any single person.

As for loco or hst ie mk3 or mk3a, this is raging can of worms, and I would like it clarified.

What makes a 3 or a 3a? Buffers? Nope. Roof vents? Nope.

So, come on rivet-counters, guide us, instead of being so negatory, please.

We need an answer from someone who was there in the day, like me.

References gratefully received.

Bear in mind that the prototype hst stock had buffers and was Mark 3, but 3a is usually referred to as loco-hauled and 3 as hst from what I can see.

I am yet to find any accurate data.

I am building pertinent stock, not just chewing the fat.

Thanks

Pete

Legend,

Thanks, I was indeed referring to the 7 window 'shorties'

And they got away with it those days as we were so starved of choice and manufacturers.

Pete

I have been using Neil Kirby's system for a while now, with no issues on our Buchshee layout.

The layout was built to use Kadees to enable remote shutting, and the magnets are still in the layout. I use these for uncoupling my stock, with no extra magnets needed, nor any moved.

This is achieved by taking the hook off one end of chosen stock and arranging stock so that there is a hook-to-loop consist at the chosen break points. It works for me as a reasonable cost compromise between Kadees and standard, with the benefit of no hand-of-god moments. Just stop over the Kadee magnet appropriately.

I have not found any metal hook that will not solder when cleaned bright. Mind, I use a 1964 Weller soldering gun that takes no prisoners for the work.

Also, it has the benefit of minimal mods from standard, if stock is put up for sale. Many systems that are around so devalue stock put up for sale.

Looking through the new release images, I note that someone is not getting quality control, or proof-reading correct.

The seating units are all standard-class spacing, whether in first or standard class photographs.

Or is it that they do not intend using the correct units, for whatever reason?

With their current issues of reputation, they should surely be doing their utmost to achieve correctness in detail, at no cost in production terms.

Anyone else bought new stock with wrong seating?

I have resorted to buying second-hand units to achieve the correct seating format in both my HSDT(252)and HST(253) rakes as stock was supplied incorrectly.

I prefer to support Hornby wherever possible, but stupid errors, of which this is typical, merely underline a sloppiness that I expect to cease with this latest management line-up.

I hope that the Oxford multi-slide tooling will be used for the final retirement of the Lima tools. Mind, at least Lima got the number of Windows right.

I also expect the marketing people to run stock correctly in the adverts, and not in the continental manner.

Anyone else have similar views, or am I being too picky?

Brian,

I had nearly 1000 images on another unrelated site.

As the originator, l was able to retrieve them in batches for re-posting, avoiding use of the p'bucket site altogether except for retrieval and at no cost, or hindrance.

So, the fears of them being irretrievably lost are unfounded.

Worked for me, hope it works for you, too.

Pete

I am advised that the initial posted image is and will always remain mine (intellectual or artistic rights, or some such). As a consequence, they cannot block my retrieval, but once they have manipulated it in any way, then they have rights over its use and abilities to charge for their manipulation.

I have a Hornby 4wheel coach that weighs 140 grammes. I reckon that that could be called a heavy-weight track cleaner.   

As it has a fair bit of drag, I will use a Hornby 0-4-0 flailing away when just cleaning the track with it to loosen any stubbon deposits, and not hauling it behind a repaired loco.

Between the axles are a cut-down Peco track rubber and a magnet. I also have a wodge of cloth between the 2 that I can soak in meths [or lighter fuel on odd occasions] to wipe up after the Relco does its magic.

As I have a dedicated figure-8 2nd radius test track to run stock in on both left and right-hand sides per lap, and occasionally use a Relco on non-DCC locos, the detritus that is generated off various stock is surprising.

I find that locos run in in this way are smoother, as the flanges are equally cleaned and prepared.

So often, locos are only run on an oval in one direction, and, like preserved locos, only use the one flange, its opposite then oxidises and causes issues.

Also, many people only clean the top of the rail, forgetting that the flanges in a corner have a greater conducting area than the tread. It is often worth cleaning the inside face of the rails, it has been found to improve the running of our exhibition layouts.

A friend bought this off Ebay and found that it did not go.

I wonder why?

After analysing the material, I can only think that someone had cleaned their track using a Brillo Pad. ____ Seriously!!

After a thorough cleaning, with a magnet alongside to avoid pollution of the workbench,  the motor ran beautifully  once the brushes had been filed to get clean carbon.

Moral of the story.?

Keep Brillo Pads away from your models, even a load as steel scrap can shed the odd fibre. Track short anyone??

If I recall correctly, this chap was offering resin casts for sale a while back.

A member of our club paid good money for a pair and they were duly delivered and brought to club.

I have to say that the quality was atrocious, I hope that  a great number of mods have been made since that time, but the proportions tell me that these bodyshells seem to have come out of the same moulds.

Caveat emptor applies.

The facebook correspondence has probably been edited by now.

Please be careful before parting with your money.

The only models that I have seen that are satisfactory are Shane's [Wolf 27 on here] and they are superb.

Mine are still making progress. As I am modelling in 1974/5, the 2 power cars have multiple differences after going through Derby between service on the East Coast and the Western region.

I certainly will not accept a re-nosed squadron-build bodyshell as many are. The louvres are a case-in-point. Subtle, but obvious once recognised, just closely study the images that are about.

Pete

Yep,

start again,

ONLY this time better!

After all I have had one go and know where the issues lie.

Thanks to you all for your sympathy and support.

If anyone has any Jouef mark 3s that they wish to get rid of, that need work, I may be in the market.

Livery does not matter as the bodysides have to be re-worked completely to remove the window frames.

Roofs and bogies important, wheels are not as they will be re-shod using Hornby 12mm solid disc [made to look like disc-braked units].

Nor are couplings important as I am using Keen's System with magnetic attraction.

Any help or leads to appropriate stock will be much appreciated.

Am watching Ebay, but prices are climbing.

Well, let's face it, with idiots like me throwing them away, they will, won't they?

Thanks again for the support

Pete

Ever shot yourself in the foot?

A month ago, l threw out a box of bubble-wrap. As I did it, l thought to myself ''Why was that there?''

On Tuesday, l found out why it was where it should not have been, it was only half-full of bubble-wrap,.

What was the other half ?

15 [yes 15!] Mark 3 coach shells, 8 converted to prototype configuration, including the catering cars, the others being prepped to create the first squadron set, plus power car shells 43002 and 3.

Ah well!

Back to the work-table.

I have had a fortunate buy at our local show, picking up 8 Jouefs for £40 for Justin [just in case they were needed by someone].

So, this time, I shall do a strip of images as to how l create the catering cars.

If l feel that they are good enough, l will put'em up on here.

Why the delay? I have searched my flat 5 times and 3 lock-up garages of car parts 3 times, just making sure.

Moral?

Always look at the inside bottom of any box that is being thrown out.

Such an idiot, am l!

I've just bought a layout [http://www.redditch-mrc.com/Buckshee%20-%20Photographs%201.htm]from a friend at the club.

In my view, it was a good price and, noting its name, the club's constructional ethos, Buchanan's nationality, the layout's fictional base just south of Oban, then I must be turning into an honorary Scot myself. i am certainly having to be extremely abstemious at the moment.

So, by moving its time-line slightly, it can be run as a preservation line, this means only number and name changes and I can run anything and hopefully get away with it. So the stud mentioned above can be justified on the layout.

As Buch is part of the layout's exhibition crew, I am able to run his stock, returning it its original theme.

Now, that's what l call cost-effective modelling!!

Pete

Also

Thanks to:-

Mike, l appreciate your advice.

l do not expect manufacturers to have any excitement, just hard-headed business sense, without this, they will not stay in business.

However, scaled basic manufacturing items, whether steel sections, meshes, checker plate, wood shapes etc, etc. should have good life and marketplace to all and any scratch-builders.

Our club seem to make everything themselves, and will use what can be found or adapted, much being re-cycled other-use components, a bit like Allan Downes using empty personal hygiene containers and the like, so a specific item can sometimes beat their initiatives.

Jonathan,

Thanks for the lead, I shall try contacting Pete Harvey.

And to others,

thanks for reading the post, in case you could help, it's what our hobby is about.

Pete

  Persistence pays off. 

1 - found some plastic card in the Evergreen range on Eileen's stand that should suffice for HSDT cant-rail  and other grilles -    ladies    

2 - some bass wood that will work well as a steel bar load on BEV wagons, again Eileen's. Thanks Derek for your help on this topic.  <   www.eileensemporium.com   >

3 - found mesh that will be acceptable for walkways on the Anhydrous Ammonia tankers and other modern image applications, thanks for this go to Aspire Models <   www.aspiregiftsandmodels.co.uk    >

So, now, forward once more on these projects, pictures will follow.

Pete Rust

Yes, lads [Redditch-mrc.com], l now promise more time on the layout downstairs. the tea-boy says so!!

    to all.

Posted 08 February 2017 - 22:03

I have to agree with Delticfan

I have been building the prototype set between other projects for the last couple of years.

Shane has been helpful with advice over the years and had multiple train sets on display at Warley.

Many thanks

Railway modelling - or - collecting

Collect by all means if you've got the money, but by choice, I model.

The HSDT is a minefield as we all know.

The coaches were not designed  for the HSDT, but as loco-hauled stock, hence them having buffing gear. 

the power cars were not thought of when the coach design was signed off, so l was informed, the power cars being a development or second string in case K9 failed, which it ultimately did.Let's face it all that the ATP-E needed was 2 radar scanners on top.

Back to the HSDT, when speaking to Rapido at Warley, I pointed out [and probably not the only one] that whilst the power cars started out as a pair, they became mis-matched when they went through Derby and were re-numbered prior to joining the western region.

The changes have been listed elsewhere, but Rapido will not compromise on their quality [rightly so], so their tooling costs would go up considerably, necessitating slide sections for the differences, or 2 sets of tooling and all the associated checks and tests prior to production.

They will not win as too many whingeing  ... will nail them for any compromise, or the cost [just read all this post, then disagree with what I have said, if you can.

People want absolute fidelity [i do] at ''Railroad'' prices, it's just not possible wherever items are designed and made in the world.

So, post-74, 2 different power cars.

As for the coaches, 10 were indeed built, 4 first, 4 second and 2 catering cars.

The bodies are unique to the batch, visibly so in 4mm.

Painting Lima or Hornby is just not on as the roof vents are of a later pattern, used on both loco-hauled and trailer cars, the doors are different as well, even more minor details need to be changed/ modified to be authentic.

The closest to date are the Jouef coaches, correct roof at least and probably the most prominent error in using Hornby models. Oh deary me, the bogies have electrical conduit on both sides instead of one only.

Window frames, when sanded off to create a flush side panel, leave a fine lip that effectively places the glazing recessed to the correct amount.

The paint livery moulding line can be useful on the doors when shaved elsewhere as it forms a neat recess for the door handles, needing just a little model filler to be okay.

 ln all my research, I am yet to find any photos of a 10+2 consist, not saying that it did not happen, but it was not a design intention to run regularly in that formation.

Test photos show the power cars running from 1+2 to 8+2 in service on the western, indeed there is evidence of the power cars running with no coaches at all.

I have built my power car noses from Hornby nosecones, fitted with Genesis valances [cut from full pewter castings], the nose change is the easy part, just get the rest of the details done as well.

All that needs to be done is to study available photographs, do not follow any of the line drawings, I have not found one that I could not criticise, some of them having major errors [how can you get the number of roof vents wrong? They match the prototype Mark 3s exactly, as do the power car rear edges, being shaved in a similar manner.

So to sum up.

If you want to run an HSDT in the near future, buy and modify 2 EARLY Hornby power cars [ you need the rear driver's cab moulding] and 8 Jouef mark 3 coaches.

Then just sit and shave to your heart's content.

Once you've found some decent shots of the catering cars, that's more kit-bashing. And boy, are those images rare!

It is possible to achieve a 99-point model with pretty easy work and it is likely to be more accurate than any potential production models, as I fear that any manufacturer will only produce power cars accurate to pre-74.

Having looked at the Oxford tooling options [the funny blue print with weird window lines], they have designed every option in that I  can see, so let's be optimistic and not whinge or knock.

If I was a manufacturer that received some of the comments and generalisations that fly around in our hobby, I go and mould Tupperware.

Let's be grateful for what we get.

I've had a quick look around Gaydon Show this evening, cannot see any brass that would make my cat-walks. Spoke to one stand, and as usual, no one seems interested in providing even a discussion about production.

And they are complaining of going out of business.

The fundamental principle of any business is to provide what a customer needs, is there anyone out there doing cost-effective brasswork these days?

I'm happy to use a flat sheet, also maybe draw up a fold-up design, but at what cost?

Anyone else interested in some?  Either sheet or full etch design?

Who stocks a decent range of etches these days?

Please help.