Edwardian

Chris, have you considered trawling the local planning portal?

You can download any architect's plans for old building conversions, which might provide you with some useful examples of vernacular structure sizes, proportions, gable angles and such like.

The first one I randomly clicked on on the Gwynedd portal:

21 minutes ago, Nick Gough said:

Or an adult version of Camberwick Green/Trumpton/Chigley? 

 

On 12/04/2024 at 23:56, Annie said:

It's a good while ago now that I put together 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' as a kind of generic pre-grouping Scottish layout in TS2012.  At first it was no more than a test track, but little by little it got added to until it eventually became a  reasonable looking layout. Made up of 12 standard Trainz layout boards it had portal tracks at each end and three stations in between.  It eventually ended up on the Trainz DLS and people seemed to like it.

 

When I first took up with Trainz TRS22 I rebuilt 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' as an experiment to see what this new version of Trainz was like.  The layout was lengthened by a standard Trainz board at each end and hidden return loops and sidings were added in tandem to the portal tracks.  Bridges and a tunnel were rebuilt, various parts of the landscape were smoothed out and reshaped and each of the stations and their surroundings received additional scenic detailing and improvement.  The only problem was I wasn't happy with the way N3V was developing TRS22 with every 'update' patch causing problems, - and with many of the engines I was using on the layout being older models it was plain that they were vulnerable to having their scripting and animations broken.  

 

So I packed the layout away and archived all its dependencies and rolling stock in the hope that I might be able to resurrect it in one of the earlier versions of Trainz.  As it happened when TRS19 reached the end of active support the final update patch it received from N3V made it a close enough match to the TRS22 build version 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' was last saved under that I could successfully load it into TRS19.

Since I was feeling quite a bit better this morning I set about installing the first of the engines and rolling stock back onto the layout.  In TRS22 I'd put together a session in 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' for some of my collection of N.E.R. engines and rolling stock.  Possibly a slight stretch for a Scottish layout, but for quite some time they haven't had a layout to call their with my old installation of Trainz TS2012 having been archived away.  Later on I will do a session for my mid 19th century collection of NBR engines and rolling stock.

 

Part of the goods yard at Cairnrigg with the MPD in the background.

 

My pair of William Bouch designed ex-SDR 4-4-0's are a slight anachronism compared to my other N.E.R. engines, but they happened to be favourites of mine.  They are Trainz TS2006 era models and despite only having basic detailing they do resemble the prototype engines in a way that pleases me well enough.  After a little fettling on my part they run very nicely.   No.161 'Lowther'  has a tender fitted with double buffers for dealing with cauldron wagons.

 

 

The other N.E.R. engines on shed.  Class 'C' left front, Class 'P' right front, Class '124' left rear and Class '59' right rear.

 

 

The Bouch locos add to the Stainmore feel this layout has for me! 

I live very close to the Stainmore Gap before the move (and am still not very far away). The bleakness of the moor and pregnant gloom of the sky seem very familiar!

Now a Class 59 is not a thing often seen (or even mentioned!), so very good to see it in your line up.

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Makes sense to me, don't even need to re-label Birchoverham's platforms :)

 

On signalling, and as with all things things WNR, I think we need to hold in our heads both the Railway of the Lore and the Model in the Shed. I'm not sure if the layout is to viewed as if it is the WNR or as a model of the WNR (my gut feeling is the former?), but I think we should be alive to the requirements for each differing slightly.

 

For example, an outer home about a loco's length after the main line into CA emerges from behind its viewblock* would be just the thing to make a stopped train not just coherent but immersive.

 

*I suspect a train might need to stop between AC Jnc (Nth) and CA, because the operator might need (/viewer might want) time to walk around from the junction bit of the shed to the CA bit. It also gives the controller a little space to change their role-playing role, and feel like they're always running trains rather than chasing after them. By having it stop as it emerges onto the scene allows a train-length or so to the station, making the most of the available space, and aims to strike a balance between being a present...ummm...presence and a dominant force on the scene: one could reasonably ignore it and continue shunting at a relaxed pace, or focus on getting an AM branch train away, but at least there is something physical to ignore!

 

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A very profound point. I differ from you, though: it's clear to me that the layout is a model of the WNR; we know that the 'real' WNR (the Railway of the Lore) has many features that are not intended to form part of the model, but that firmly exist in the documented contents of James' imagination.

Yes, Brother Compound is correct; the layout is not the WNR. The railway has a history and an extent that would never be modelled comprehensively. At it's simplest, once must remember there is a prototype!

That said, the WNR model railway needs to follow the usual compromises and to find 'artistic' solutions therefore in both physical and operational terms in its depiction of the prototype. 

Thus Brother Schooner does make a very profound point. 

There are a lot of things, I refelect, that only exist in my imagination!

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Heck. I declare that the WNR mileage is measured from CA, so departures from thence by either the main or branch are down trains and arrivals are up. In which case, I believe one needs a pair of down starters at the platform end, one for the main and one for the branch, with down advance starters a train's length further on on both lines, so that shunting moves remain within station limits. There would be an up home on each line in rear of the junction, with up distants further out (offstage). Possibly outer homes, to protect moves within station limits up to the advance starters. Alternatively, shunting moves could be regarded as occupying the sections and the advance starters and outer homes dispensed with, though I'm not sure how that would work since the sections on both main and branch would be occupied. 

So long as the Bronx is still up and the Battery's down, I will happily accept that.

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I doubt that at this period at a place of this sort there would be ground signals, shunting moves being controlled by hand signals.

Oh, I had assumed there would be, but....

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The reason for the question "which way is up?" was prompted simply by the desire to be able to refer to signals as being for the up and down directions - up home, down starter, etc., rather than: "the starter signal for trains going from left to right on the plan"!

If the Bichoverhams to the North are Up, then everything else is Down?

Or the other way around!

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm reminded of those Polish friends of mine who say that they were taught Russian in school, but did not learn it. I don't speak LNER myself but know enough to translate where necessary. But this all begs the question, what were WNR structure colours? Presumably the more-or-less ubiquitous two shades of brown? And did the WNR S&T Dept use them or have its own preferences? Or was the signalling contractor also responsible for maintenance?  

Ah, just seen this, but you have anticpated my response!

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Are trains approaching CA travelling in the up or the down direction (and is it the same on both routes)? Is CA the zero of the milepost mileage?

Err.....

Good question. Don't know. Up to the Birchoverhams and Down to CA, Bury and Norwich, or t'other way around?

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do we take it that all arrivals and departures must be at the platform road?

Yes

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Which way is up?

The only way...

3 hours ago, Schooner said:

@Compound2632 A classic chronic illness analogy/management approach

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/01/14/spoon-theory-chronic-illness-spoonie/

 

with which I've picked up more familiarity over the past couple of years than I'd like. My sympathies James (and Annie, and us spooners all).

 

More incoming but for now, in case it helps parse the signalling requirements:

 

 

Thank you for your wishes and also for posting these. Very handy

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

By no means. LQ was well nigh universal up until well into the grouping period. The perception of GW exceptionalism in this respect is a classic example of looking back through a BR steam lens - always bound to fog the picture.

 

Hope you are both on the mend. 

Thanks.

I can only attest to the reason I am biased towards LQ signals, but, yes, it is one of those details that helps set the period by being typical of it.

No yella Distant arms niver! 

2 hours ago, Annie said:

Oh James, - I wish both you and Miss T a swift recovery.  I wish you both many many spoons as well 🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄🥄

Thanks, Annie, definitely a low spoon count in recent months.

Spoons and days. My parents' gaff needed sorting, packing up and the stuff moving out. In the Marie Kondo Universe, we, as a family, must represent the Antichrist. Fortunately, since none of us is a Millennial, we understand that the KonMari method is utter b0ll0cks.

That said, my parents' house was full. They've been there since '76, so their entire lives since then, and much of mine unto the third generation, was evident in the house and its attic, along with much of my deceased grandparents' lives. It's cumulative hording unto the third generation. 

It made me think. What it made me think was, I need a model railway executor for when my number's up.

This was the slow work of months, not least because I have a school-age sprog, two mentally school-aged dogs and a full-time job while my parents' gaff is 150 miles away. Latterly it became very pressured as we had an early offer and were being pressed to complete before Christmas. I narrowly missed that, did some more during the Christmas holidays, and when I returned to the house in early January with a week or so until exchange and completion, l found that a burst pipe had flooded both floors of the house at taken the ceilings down. This was not ideal. 

There was more packing and re-packing, a little soggier than before, then moving, then unloading here. This means that the large shed is now rammed with stuff, so nowhere for Castle Aching, and the overspill filled my reception rooms in the house. Again, not ideal. This last month has been spent clearing these rooms. Another couple of weeks and things will be to rights. I can certainly see the light at the end of this tunnel. And most of my sitting room.

Anyway, I haven't really had enough spoons for the job at any given point, so certainly no spoons left for modelling. 

The next task will be to go through the shed to determine the fate of each and every box until there is enough room to convert it to a railway room, albeit one with a lot of under-basedboard storage!

I do think that my little salvaged BLT might find room in the house, though, so I might revisit that.  

2 hours ago, Annie said:

I definitely approve of your signal box ideas, - but then I would wouldn't I  😄

 

Bear in mind though that those green and pale yellow colours are the invention of the Late & Never Early Railway and aren't GER colours at all, - oh dear me no.

As you know, I have a fondness for old scratch-built buildings. As little buildings are a my joy, I honour those folk who went before and cherish their models. I found what I thought was a very charismatic signal box on the Bay of Fleas. I don't recall much other interest in it and it was mine for £14. The model is in very reasonable nick, with really just the top of the stovepipe and some handrails to be replaced.  

I fancied it for Castle Aching, but decided that, regardless, I would use it somewhere on the layout. I had reviewed just about every model signal box going, but the style of this one just looked right in my eyes for the WNR. 

It features the three-by-three window pane arrangement that the Great Eastern finally adopted for their standardised design of 1886. For me the proportions of the windows seemed fair and I liked that the windows were in pairs, one inset, one set forward, so that the inner ones may slide behind the outer. This arrangement is also found on Saxby & Farmer boxes, such as Bearsted on the LC&DR and Combe Junc. on the Liskeard & Looe Railway. 

Thus, I can base the standard WNR type off this scratch-built prototype, using components from the Wills kit. The frontage of that kit could be shortened from 5 windows to the 4 of my model. It rather depends on how many lever frames each box is likely to need.     

As to the colour, yes, it is rather Late & Never Early Railway, and the WNR station colours are buffs and stone shades and such. That said, some pre-Grouping railways had it that the S&T department would do its own thing, so signal boxes were not always painted in the same colour scheme as station buildings. Green and cream/ivory is, of course, reflective of WNR livery and I had been wondering if it might apply these colours to its signalling infrastructure. 

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

Sorry to hear you’re having a bad patch (also miss T) hope things are picking up. As to signal box kits, I came across one maker on RMweb, and jotted it down for reference. No knowledge or experience of them, so anyway:

 

https://railmodel.co.uk/collections/frontpage

 

 

Thank you. 

Those are some lovely kits.

I have had a lot on which has absorbed all my time and energy and I am more of less chronically unwell at present; both Miss T and I have had a bad few weeks in that regard. No modelling.

Looking ahead, I want to consider the WNR S&T department.

I have long held the view that the WNR would have used one of the private contractors, like McKenzie Holland or Saxby & Farmer.

There will be some old slot-in-post signals around, but the introduction on the WNR of block signally in the 1880s would have seen something of an overhaul in the S&T infrastructure.

I have decided on a contractor, Saxby & Farmer, and on a style.  

The standard WNR boxes resemble in style the GER's standard 1886 design. Although McKenzie & Holland were the GER's main contractor, some of this style were built by Dutton & Co, and the design is very similar to boxes produced ny Saxby & Farmer.

I really like the look of the design and it is nice to tie the WNR to some extent to GER practice and examples from Norfolk.

In terms of resources, I have a nice scratch-built box in this style, and have the ability to kit-bash both the Wills plastic Saxby & Farmer kit and Osborn Models' laser-cut GER box, although I am not sure I would need such a large example.

In terms of signal components, lower quadrant (GWR preferences showing through) Saxby & Farmer etched and cast parts are available from Wizard Models.

In planning the physical building, then, the first question is, in terms of the 4 boxes I will need (Castle Aching, Achingham and Birchoverham Market North and South boxes), based on the respective track plans and likely signalling arrangements, how many levers am I likely to need in each box?

That's a rather indirect way, I suppose, of saying, is it about time we evolved signally diagrams for Brother Schooner's excallent track plans.

Yorkshire Titantic

Caption: "Give over, Luv. Am sure there's enough room fur us both ont door, if only thee'd leave off fidgeting"

7 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

These will keep you out of mischief for a wee while (or perhaps not!).  That is after you've washed the windows of course!😉

 

Jim

Again, that is what rain is for! 

2 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

Glad they have arrived. Hopefully nothing got damaged in the post. Let me know if it did so I can sort out replacements.

Gary

Thanks, Gary.

Look OK at a cursory glance, but I'll give tem a good look over this weekend.

WNR and Isle of Wight trains in the offing then.

20 hours ago, CKPR said:

excuse the class 25s 

 

I'll think about it. 

No guarantee, mind.

But, seriously, that is a lovely shot, very 'natural' looking splay of track. 

On 24/02/2024 at 19:34, AVS1998 said:

 

Just a vague mock-up of the proposed LN-X Baltic, Lord Amelius Beauclerk. The cab is virtually a like-for-like W, which I'm fairly happy with. Side tanks are simple long rectangles stopping maybe 2mm short of the forward boiler band, and around the same height as the handrails, which looks 'right' to me. It's going to be a hefty machine, if I commit to a build!

Great project, and I look forward to developments. Still, resulted in a double-take. I thought I was looking at a giant 3D print of a locomotive boiler until I saw the stitching and realised it was a sofa. 

Bowlers hats ...

When I served, I attended the annual Cavalry Memorial day in Hyde Park. We were expected to wear officers' out of uniform 'uniform' for such ocasions, a dark suit, regimental tie, rolled umbrella and bowler hat. It did not go down well when, seeing brother officers converging on the Park from various directions, Yours Truly exclaimed "bloody Hell, it's an Avengers convention!!"

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Are these the ex-LSWR coaches that have been discussed in respect to the IoW? 

Yes, the MC&WCo-built LSWR carriages.

The Third Brake and the Third are taken from the MC&WCo-built LSWR 1872-3 block sets. The LSWR-built ones were slightly different.

The First-Second Composite is another MC&WCo-built LSWR carriage, of 1871-4. I believe 4 of these went to the IWCR at the turn of the century. 

The Luggage Brake is a freelance vehicle in the same style. 

On 22/02/2024 at 03:20, Annie said:

One of my 'possibly could have been' Broad Gauge E.B. Wilson well tanks at Dunster.  I paid for these well tanks to be specially modified for me from a standard gauge model, - only they turned out to have three small errors, - which while they aren't blindingly obvious are a bit on the disappointing side.  This is why I'd love to be able to make my own digital models.  That way if there are mistakes at least they would be my own.  I'd love to have a go at one of the Severn & Wye's Fletcher Jennings Broad Gauge 0-6-0T's.

 

Despite everything I like my 'what-if' E.B. Wilson well tanks and they do run well and are generally useful.  Edit:  I figured out how to reset the environmental lighting so the pictures of Dunster look better now.

 

 

Looking towards Blue Anchor.

 

Adorable

11 hours ago, Annie said:

Adorable.

2 hours ago, GMKAT7 said:

 

Annie, is that both a cat and not a cat at the same time?

 

And is it both alive and not alive at the same time?

 

My only cat joke is:

Erwin Schrödinger is pulled over on the road by the traffic police. 

The policeman asks Schrödinger to unlock the car boot.

The policeman opens the boot and looks inside. Then he says, "Sir, did you know there's a dead cat in your boot?"

"Well there is now", replies Schrödinger.  

Apologies if this has been posted already, but the Utube Algae-Rhythm just chucked this one at me:

On 16/02/2024 at 19:24, Compound2632 said:

 

At Appleby, where there was a double junction connection to the NER.

 

 

Do you know when?

According to the 1897 OS survey (if  accurate) it appears to be single, but double by the time of the 1911 revision.

21 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I remain hopeful 🤞 that Rapido will unexpectedly announce the Wagon-Lits Type F Sleeper Coach in OO, which would (I am sure) be hoovered up by lots of modellers with Hornby West Country/Battle of Britain/Merchant Navy locos! It’s been a wide open goal that Hornby have ignored for years and I suspect Rapido might be the ones to score a goal with a RTR model (just one coach, very slight differences) and maybe even follow up with Fourgons to match!!

 

I can dream!

 

Steve S

A guard's van at the end of a train, rather a fourgon conclusion.

This is another example of why, while I am just so bored by Hornby and Bachmann announcements these days, my interest is kept alive by the likes of Accurascale and, pre-eminently, by Rapido.

Another three cheers.

Aside from the odd L&M release (and laterly that range has included a lot of dross) I can say honestly say that nothing Hornby has announced since the Peckett W4 has made me feel enthusiasm. Bachmann's only interesting releases in recent years are things that commissioners have, eventually, been able to beat out of them. In general, though, it's just same old same old, or in the case of Hornby, yet another LNER pacific. I am jaundiced; toy makers who later learnt to make some very good models (others less so), but who seem to lack imagination, passion or originality these days. Hornby in particular has been a lazy copycat and milker of ancient dross, while the most interesting thing about Bachmann's most recent announcement was the company's questionable use of the Youtube copyright strike system to silence a critic. Thanks to Sam's Trains for bringing to my attention this travesty meted out on a fellow Youtuber. 

Accurascale and Rapido, by contrast, strike me as passionate and enthusiastic model makers. That is unfair, no doubt, to many passionate and knowledgeable folk working for Bachmann and Hornby, but all I have to go on is the overall impression these behemoths create. That impression is, I would say, lacklustre. Let's hope that, instead of spoilers, the competition bucks up the sleepy old giants of the industry to be more creative (though not in the 'Basset Lowke' sense, Heaven forefend). 

In the meantime, Rapido in particular has developed a knack of coming up with interesting, exciting, yet also useful releases. What a great sequel to the MW L Class and the Port of Par locos in these terms.

We never know what Rapido is going to do next. It's always worth hearing though. Thank you, Rapido, once again for warming my old, cold, bitter heart with the simple childlike joy your products engender. 

As something introduced in 1913, the fireless only just squeaks within my period of interest, but I am strongly tempted. l  wonder how the earliest of these compared with the later-built ones? How early can you go with the announced versions?