eatus-maximus

2 hours ago, giz said:

I seem to remember that one mod was to the multi working connection so that they wouldn't match the 158s to stop Regional Railways borrowing them.

I thought that but.....

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Well, SWR seem to have their own 158 fleet now - though I don't know whether they work together.

Yes they do.

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Sort of ! ............ a batch of 158s were diverted and were 'rebuilt' as 159s in the process ....................... though I've never sussed out what the 'rebuilding' involved. 

Apparently they had First class and retention toilets fitted.

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

What amazes me is that she - or anyone else for that matter - was actually allowed to get within sight of the job without head to toe high-viz, hard hat, totectors etc.etc. ......

If it isn't railway land, or there is a public right of access, there is nothing the railway can do.

I would have thought the MLBS would have been the better coach to motorise, given the underframe is entirely different anyway.

On 15/12/2023 at 14:46, eatus-maximus said:

 

I saw some 3D printed couplers the other day, can I think of where I saw them... no... but they are out there.

Turns out it was Precision Labels...

DELLNER COUPLINGS CLASS 57, 47 & 37

5 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

No, Flashing Yellow aspects indicate that the the junction signal is cleared, but, for a lower speed diverging route, as the purpose is to allow the driver to brake according to the diverging speed at the turnout, instead of to stop at the junction signal. You do not get flashing yellows and then approach control. The sequence will be G - FYY - FY - Y With Junction indicator which can clear up on approach to YY or G if the line ahead is clear to permit....

I did say I was going from memory, which is going back 20 years, and to be fair I thought it was implicit that we were talking about a lower speed diverging route. I have adjusted my post though.

GNER examples of mixed rakes of coaches (not locos), are exceptionally rare, in part because their spare stock was in short supply compared to the number of full rakes they had, but also because they were quite quick to repaint stock, in complete rakes, but that is not to say it didn't happen. I can't link properly from work equipment, but a Google image search for "GNER Doncaster 1997" will bring up a picture from Flickr.

I am also aware of a very short period of time when the 'Mallard' refurbishments were happening, where a couple of Virgin livery Mk3 coaches were inserted into GNER HST rakes to extend the trains to 9 carriages, but at this point I cannot source a photo.

Examples of Virgin/Intercity, Midland Mainline/Intercity, Midland Mainline/Virgin/Project Rio, and basically anything First Group/GWT/Intercity are not hard to find.

On 13/12/2023 at 14:47, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

Unsure if anyone in this thread is still active, but I’m looking into converting an old Hornby class 47 to a class 57/3, specifically 57314 or 315, in Arriva Trains colours, any suggestions for paints?

 

Also, I can’t seem to find ATW transfers, any pointers as to where I can find some in 4mm scale?

Precision Labels have waterslide transfers.

PRECISION DECALS - D61-A

On 28/12/2023 at 18:10, jpendle said:

....Anyhow, the root of my question was in regards to signalling my WCML N Gauge layout.

 

I'm playing around with 4 aspect signals in iTrain and it's going to be a steep learning curve. iTrain's Automatic signals are based on German speed signalling rather than UK route signalling.

 

 

I currently have 1 working 4 aspect signal and a signal decoder. I doubt that I'm going to be buying any more stuff until I've been able to get head around signals in iTrain....

In the UK, from memory, there are two ways that a 'high speed' junction could be approached.

If the signaller has set the junction for the train to pass AND it is clear to proceed (no conflicting movements), the process will start three signals away from the junction. The driver will see two flashing yellow aspects, followed by one flashing yellow aspect, then a steady single yellow aspect with route/junction indicator before the junction. The driver should expect the signal after the junction to be red. As the train approaches (distance may vary by junction), the signal may change to a less restrictive aspect.

If the signaller has NOT set the junction and/or it is NOT clear to proceed over the junction, the process starts three signals before the junction. The signal will show two steady yellow aspects, the next one yellow aspect, and then the final signal before the junction is red. It will stay red until the route is set and the route is clear to proceed.

As always, if the route clears and the junction is set whilst the train is approaching, a signal may change. For example, a double yellow aspect could change to a single flashing yellow.

A route/junction indicator is only shown on the final signal before the junction. The indicator will usually only show for a diverging route, but there are exceptions.

This process may change if there is a signal in the middle of 'a junction', see the Colwich accident (1986??) for more gruesome details on that!

9 hours ago, MikeB said:

....This will add to calls after the Stonehaven derailment to withdraw the HSTs as they do not meet current safety standards....

My understanding is that most of the trains on the national network do not meet the current standards, so what do they want to replace them?

On 12/12/2023 at 22:48, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

....Also, if possible, could a MK4 DVT be converted to a MK3? Or do the different carriage profiles mean such would be impossible without use of a specialised bodykit? Not as important though, as I'm mainly after guidance for converting the 47.

The Mk3 and Mk4 DVTs are very different. Not much in common at all.

On 13/12/2023 at 14:22, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

Done more reading into it, ATW used class 57/3s, that being the specific type I’d need to model, are there any major cosmetic differences between the different types of 57s? Or are all differences purely mechanical?

 

Edit1: Also, it seems I was wrong, ATW ran them on MK2 sets, not MK3s, initially in Top & Tail formation, but eventually loco only.

 

Edit2: I’ve also found that ATW transfers aren’t something easily available, anyone know where I’d be able to get some?

ATW transfers are available from Precision Labels.

4 hours ago, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

Can’t see any on 57314, just standard chain links, I’ll look into a 57/6 conversion kit then.

 

Are there any parts I’d be able to use for the equipment on the front end? Unsure what all that was used for (again, not used to modelling diesels and modern prototypes), but it’s something I’d have to model....

I saw some 3D printed couplers the other day, can I think of where I saw them... no... but they are out there.

When the 57/3 locos were first converted, they did not have Dellner couplers. These were a later addition. At various points some have had the couplers removed, but with the mounting point still in place.

7 hours ago, Fordbank said:

I amsure you are correct.

I try hard to correctly attribute any photos used on this thread.  Original photos contribute greatly to the interest of the thread and the photographs of John and yourself have provided not only great interest but also valuable information about the line through Peak Forest.

 

I had searched at length through my archive to source an accurate description and attribution for the  photograph concerned but had failed to find one.  I rather rashly assumed that it was the earlier  working of the below:-

'Peak Forest 23-4-95 (SUN) 37426+026 had just worked the morning empty ICI hoppers from Northwich to Tunstead and were stabled waiting for the afternoon trip '. Photo John Catterson.

 

However you are clearly correct regarding the rosebay willow herb. ( it is such a distinctive plant at Peak Forest and I am still working on a way to model it believably).

 

My sincere apologies for mistakenly attributing the photo to John. It is often a balance between failing to credit the photographers of original material, and doing so in error. I clearly rushed this one, and must try harder.

 

Many thanks to you and John for making so many of your photos available on Flickr;  Reflections on Peak Forest would be far poorer without their benefit.

 

Regards,

Andy

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but I'm genuinely curious as to why there is a NP 59 at Peak Forest.

On 04/12/2023 at 18:22, adb968008 said:

This is the problem with the 185.. three liveries, and most of the time these units run solo, so most people only need to buy one in their selected era, and job done.

 

I seem to recall at least 1 class 185 in a promo livery, c2000’s.

There's been a few promotional liveries, or variations, Liverpool Capital of Culture '08, Pride, Remembrance Day, Eurovision, and Andy's Man Club spring to mind.

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Please get it right - instructions from DafT not to recruit.

 

 Operators who wanted to recruit into various jobs were not allowed to.  Hence, for example, Avanti are still cancelling trains due to not having enough trained Drivers.  So even if people could buy a ticket they might not  have a train to travel on when they want to travel.

Whilst my opinion is that your first sentence is true, unlike the closure of ticket offices I lack the necessary information to state it as fact.

16 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Number of tickets sold in person will vary hugely depending upon the station. A quote from somewhere else (on another forum, says it came from Modern Railways ) gave 62% for St Helens Central. Logically it'll vary hugely from TOC to TOC, with an operator like Northern who runs local services which don't offer advanced fares being far more likely to sell a ticket in the office than one like Avanti.

Northern do offer Advance fares on many routes, many on the day too (with a deadline of 5-15 minutes before travel), but unlike many other Train Companies, they're not available on the day from ticket offices.

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is sadly a common occurrence due to staffing cuts and sweating the (human) assets over the years.

 

If a counter is single manned then anything from staff sickness / a family emergency through to annual leave or staff training will leave the office without anyone on duty....

Made worse by decisions not to recruit.

Some train companies have not recruited for ticket office positions since the beginning of 2020, meaning training courses for staff movement within the company do not happen either. My company has a staff deficit of approximately 10% and no sign of recruiting in the near future.

18 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Nice one. You make a claim, plant the seed of doubt, and then run away.

 

Nice, someone slates the entire BBC news team and you say nothing, I slate, potentially, one person in the entire BBC and you want proof or I'm 'running away'.

17 hours ago, whart57 said:

I can't help but think though that the government thought this was too unpopular a decision to implement in the year before the next election/

It is a potential for sure. Someone probably thought it would be a good idea to show 'they are better' than the TOCs (or Shapps), but as most people seem to know where the instructions came from, it really isn't the win they might think it is.

17 hours ago, Dagworth said:

A large part of me thinks that it was so obviously an impossible idea that it was only ever a distraction to keep attention away from other policies, which could then later be abandoned in a fanfare of claims of listening. 
 

Andi 

They could have done that in a much better way, saved face more easily, so I'm not sure about that, but there may be some truth in that.

13 hours ago, rodent279 said:

12% of what?

By volume of sales, or by revenue?

Usually it is whichever gives the best reason to do what they want to do, but in this case I think it is tickets issued as a percentage of all sales on the National Rail Network, that seems to be how it is being reported atleast. Naturally these figures will include sales from business, which often are booked through a third party provider online with no choice of using a ticket office, but will not count the numbers of people collecting those tickets, or asking for advice, at ticket offices (because they are not sales).

29 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

Shouldn't you provide means to verify that statement

If you want a 22 page essay, yes. I figured this thread was about ticket office closures though, so like I say, not wanting to get bogged down in a tangent.

18 hours ago, C126 said:

 

I ranted to a fellow commuter yester-day morning - a University sub-Professor - who still believed the railway companies were increasing profits by not hiring more trains to alleviate our peak-time crush loadings.  This is the third time I have lectured him, and still he jumps to the simplistic conclusion.  How many times can one use the phrases "direct management contracts", "Treasury's dead hand", and "government diktat", before despairing of the polity?  Sorry, rant over.

 

[Edit: Actually, I think the correct word is "electorate", not polity.]

Based on experience I'd say your first issue is "a University sub-Professor", which is a career path that doesn't hold as much weight for intellectual debate as it used to, though this is a rather large generalisation, I'm sure there are still some very good ones out there (other 'professions' to be wary of include "Lawyers" and "Customer Service Managers/Trainers", though again they are a generalisation).

17 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

....

 

Now they have invented 'BBC Verify' in order to reassure us that what they report in the news is not b*llocks! I thought that was what responsible news journalists did as a matter of course. All more jobs for the boys (and girls)!

 

....

Not wishing to get bogged down in this tangent but if I recall correctly, one of BBC Verify's first reports was littered with verifiably false and inaccurate statements of "fact". The bits that were accurately true seeming to be grossly outnumbered.

17 hours ago, darrel said:

How much money has been wasted on this farce?

Given the level of detail in Northern's proposal (which is the one I am most familiar with), I doubt it is as much as you think (detail is something they didn't really waste any time on from what I can see), though it is probably a fair chunk of money.

Transport Focus actually released the questions it asked of the TOCs and the responses given. In Northern's paperwork was the response to a question of how people could get tickets which were not available through the TVMs. The answer given was that they would try to make as many as possible available, but that it was 'not commercially efficient' to offer all of them by those channels. Someone actually signed off on that response.

On 10/09/2023 at 20:26, bootneckbob said:

Cheers Mike, that's what I thought as I'd fairly recently been watching the last HST Plymouth to Paddington (again) for the bit in Exeter as it helps me with details, and I noticed the signal was green for minutes before the train departed. I liked that as a little detail as it means I won't be switching a signal in quick succession (from red to green and back) whilst driving the train out of the platform.

R and RA ("Right Away") signify that platform duties are complete. This is a local system operated by dispatch staff and not connected to the signalling system. I believe the instruction to station staff is not to illuminate the indicator until the main signal has a proceed aspect (to reduce the chances of a SPAD).

So typically the signaller will set the route and release the signal, then the dispatch duties will be completed, and the R/RA indicator is illuminated, before the train can depart.

18 hours ago, hayfield said:

Well it was so much easier than buying a ticket from a machine or long queues at a booking office. What was strange was that the journey cost £2.70 going out and £2.80 coming back,  why the difference?  Sunday afternoon/evening in August, Tuesday early evening return in September

 

But that was TFL and not Mainline (ex BR)

£2,70 is off-peak, £2.80 is peak time.

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

So thinking about the soon to be loss of the Mk5 class 68 combos, I thought I might book a train trip from Manchester to Scarborough.

 

Went to the TPE site, and it said (for a random date in October) a return trip £45, not too bad I thought, until I expanded and looked at the options; none were £45. 

 

Is this the future, offer one price to entice but take it away when you actually try and go a little deeper,

It is indeed the future, as is not being advised to buy Railcards when applicable, as is not being able to buy a full range of tickets.

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Today has been an excellent - unfortunately - illustration of where this will take us.  The GWR east of Reading has had  a lineside fire (in itself hardly suroprising in view of the dried out jungle alongside the line) so trains were seriously disrupterd.  Our branch terminus booking office was closed today - no doubt saving overtime payment.  So another intending passenger used the Help Point  thing on the wall and asked if the booking office was open at the junction - only to be told to ring GWR Customer Services!

 

That was weird enough but if got even worse when I asked if they could tell me how trains were running on the (named) branch ?  Despite being given the name of the branch she asked what station I was travelling from?  So I told her. for the second time.  She than asked where. I was travelling to which struck me as irrelevant as I could only go one way in any event.  She then got to the bit about the lineside fire and told me things wouldn't be normal until 13.00.

 

Quite where she got 13.00 from I don't know as I subsequently found out that by the time I spoke to her some trains were already running but there was, and remains, severe disruption - which she didn't mention.   A person in a booking office with internet access could have told me, and everyone else hanging around waiting, all of thst in a couple of minutes without even having to ask where I was and with no need to ask where I was going.  The departure indicator was no better simply showing trains as 'Delayed' when they were obviously cancelled and the announcing system was as bad when it to;ld i us all that the next train would be arriving when it patently wasn't (and another passenger said it had done the same for the previous train which also never materialosed

 

If ours were an unstaffed station I'd have at this point a different complaint about the booking office closure because it would be ancient history - but it isn't.  It is still supposed to have a staffed Booking Officve and someone has been expressly recruited to man it, except he isn't there today.  But the sheer total inadequacy of the Help Point sydstem and the inability of the person on the other end to actually 'help' two successive intending passengers genuinely shocked me, as did the t rest of the station's information system which seemed to live in a world of its completely detached from reality.

The Help Points are contracted out (at one point last year the Help Points at my local station were disconnected due to a sudden ending of the contract), I'm unsure if it is one contract for all train companies, or each with their own though, but this would explain their inability to grasp the situation very quickly. Their information is likely to be about as vague as the web page they are reading from.

With any disruption, train companies will usually have a time either for resumption of service or when they expect "normal" service to resume. This is not always made public, but is probably where the time came from.

The departure boards are a largely automated system with some manual input. Unless altered manually, the expected times shown will adjust according to where the train is on the track compared to where it should be. When a train is stationary or has not started it's journey at the expected time, it will default to "Delayed" to avoid changing the expected time by three minutes every three minutes. If the train is subsequently cancelled, it will likely just disappear from the board with no explanation. Obviously with big disruption the boards are less likely to be manually altered for every train.

These are the systems that the railway plans to use to help replace ticket offices, along with cheap TVMs that barely work and DOO trains.

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They are definitely behind theproosals to close booking offices (the originator was a certain Minister who has moved on to other things he also doesn't understand any more than he understood transport)d.

 

But have there actually been any changes to the conditions required to be met for the introduction of DOO for passenger trains?   I haven't heard of any although the wide availability of GSM(R) might well facilitate its introduction in some places where it wasn't previously feasible?

Yeah, I presume he has friends with access to AI war machines that definitely aren't made on a budget..... anyway....

I don't know of any specific changes to conditions yet, however, Northern and the RMT are technically still in dispute over DOO (DCO), several BR era units have been noted with new monitors installed in the cab, albeit plated over, and of course the 195s and 331s at Northern were all designed with DOO (DCO) in mind. I would expect all of the new units Northern might want to also be fitted for DOO (DCO). I believe the last pay offers to the RMT/ASLEF still had DOO in them, though more as an agreement to consider at a later stage on a more local level. It's difficult to know what TSSA agreed to because they didn't even know they had agreed to close the ticket offices.

34 minutes ago, Fishoutofwater said:

3rd rail then?

presumably the 769s still retain DC capability if not the actual shoes.

Northern's units had shoes and shoe fuses removed. It should be possible to refit them though. Failing that, the stored GWR 769s are tri-mode I believe.

No-one likes fitting 3rd rail these days though, even the Merseyrail extension has seen batteries fitted to the units.

15 hours ago, Chris116 said:

When London Underground closed all their ticket offices they made a lot out of there being more staff to help passengers around the station. This was true for about a year during which time all the ticket office staff spent their shift outside the now bricked up ticket office helping passengers to buy their tickets. Personally, I found it took twice as long to serve such passengers as it would have done when I was in the ticket office!

 

Then around a year after the ticket offices had closed most of us took voluntary severance and that meant my station went from having two or three staff for 90% of the day to having one member of staff. So much for more staff to help passengers.

 

In my view what happened on London Underground is exactly what DfT are planning on National Rail.

 

DfT stands for Disastrous for Transport.

Let's also note here that the Underground is a far simpler system with a far simpler fares structure, and yet many British people still struggle, nevermind the tourists.

I remember once working at City Thameslink a good few years ago, at the Holborn Viaduct entrance, on a LUL strike day and a smartly dressed woman walked down to the ticket office. She asked if she could get to King's Cross from there due to the strike. "Yes" I said, "there's a direct service, eight trains an hour". "Brilliant" she exclaims, "from there I can get home to St Albans". At which point I had to break it to her that there were also eight trains an hour (four 'quick trains') direct to St Albans. Turns out, she had been changing from train to tube at King's Cross Thameslink for the Circle line to Barbican and then walking along Long Lane and up Snow Hill to the Goldmann Sachs building across the street (in fairness the station entrance is well hidden from the street... aside from the massive BR sign). City Thameslink had been open for twenty years at that point and even Farringdon was direct train from St Albans. Not only was she making a longer journey than she needed to, but she was also paying more for the privilege.

What happened on the Underground will not work for the railway, but yes, that does appear to be the plan. 

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It is a DfT requirement that stations with automatic ticket barriers in operation MUST be staffed with someone monitoring the barriers at all times precisely because of safety concerns about access / egress

 

Thats why you get barriers left open sometimes - it means the person who should be monitoring them is not present - which can include because they are out on the platform getting ready to deploy a wheelchair ramp, going round emptying bins, taking a toilet break or are simply not on duty due to sickness / holiday.

 

Note that the rules do not require every barrier to be manned - its permissible to have them covered by CCTV and fitted with two way voice comms so that only one person is required to keep an eye on 3 separate entrances / exits for example - but obviously if that happens and the person is unable to remain at the monitoring station then all gates must be left open.

 

 

The DfT are behind these plans to close ticket offices and remove Guards, so you can expect that rule book to be ripped up and single control rooms being placed in charge of many station ticket barriers remotely to cut down on staff, probably with low hours agency workers contracted out by profit making TOCs.